Abortion

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Слава Україні!

Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

Point out the contradiction you allege. It should be easy.
This :
A "father" (at least traditionally and Biblically, if not in our day) is a "patriarch." As such, he is owed honour by all who are his progeny. They owe everything they have to Him...including their very existence. And the "children" are answerable to the "father," who has greater wisdom, experience, and power than the "children." To the "father" they must look for their provision and guidance, and they remain under His authority so long as they are "children." So everything again comes back to the priority of God as Father.
When the parents go to a new place, the children come along. When the children eat, it's what the parents provide. The education of the children is in the discretion of the parents. And the parents determine what experiences are allowed to come into a child's life, so much as they are able.
As Father, God has absolute right of authority in such matters. So in that sense, they are rightfully under His governance and leadership.
Contradicts this :
He allows free choice;
But just as children can rebel, and often do, God does not inflict His authority in a totalitarian way.
... it's not of involuntary servitude ...
Children are not "slaves."
I'm not even listing all the contradictions.
If your father does not "own" you in any sense, then who does?
Nobody.
You're walking down the street with a child beside you.

Somebody walks up to you and says, "Is that your daughter?"

How do you answer?
Ah, the sloppiness of language.

The question is actually something like "did you father this child?" or "are you taking responsibility for this child?"

It's not "is this child your property?"

And if you really believe that God owns everybody, then she belongs to God and not to me. Right?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:41 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:48 am So what rights to you think THIS has:
fetua.JPG

Tell us why you think this is a person with legal rights??
The only entities that can have legal rights are "persons." So your question is, "What makes you think this is a 'person'?

And the answer is obvious. But let's start at the basics: if it's not a "human," what is this? DNA gives us the definitive answer: it's a human being, a "person" in the early stages of formation. But it has all the genetic material and potentials that will produce a human being in every sense that Sculpy is one. To abort her is to prevent such a being from existing, by tearing her limb from limb and flushing her into a sink or selling her body parts.

The whole point of abortion is to stop a human being, a "person" from living. That's the payoff of the whole procedure. Are not the abortionists the ones who object, "If it is allowed to live, I will have to love it, respect it, raise it, pay for it, protect it, provide for it...and I have no love for doing that." Do they not also go on, "Even though I chose the actions that created her, and gave her no choice in the matter, I will not even allow this little person the right to exist at all. I will not give her life, and then let her be adopted by the many longing for a child; rather than have her living in this world, I will tear her apart and pretend she never existed at all."
DNA is not written into the law.
You are, as usual talking bollocks
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Murder is illegal killing
QED it is not possible to murder a fetus, because a fetus is not a person.

A note for IC.
Every time you wank into your sock, you should be ashamed, since the think the possession of human DNA is an indication of personhood, you are personally a mass murderer.
But then every time IC takes a shit he is murdering since even human faeces carries human DNA.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:14 pm DNA is not written into the law.
No. It's written into your very existence, and the fundamental level...somewhat more important than "law," I would say.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:16 pm Murder is illegal killing
No, "murder" is immoral killing. 8)

It's a crime against mankind, and a crime against God. It's the willful, deliberate ending of another person's life...like abortion.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:58 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:14 pm DNA is not written into the law.
No. It's written into your very existence, and the fundamental level...somewhat more important than "law," I would say.
So do you cry after you wank into a sock?
Do you cry when god aborts pregnancies?
DO you cry when you eat a steak?
How about when you eat cabbage. Cabbage has DNA!
Or when you take antibiotic?
Or are you just an idiot?
Are you just a joke?
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:00 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:16 pm Murder is illegal killing
No, "murder" is immoral killing. 8)

It's a crime against mankind, and a crime against God. It's the willful, deliberate ending of another person's life...like abortion.
Talking bollocks again.
Abortion is not murder any more than eating cabbage it
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:35 pm
As Father, God has absolute right of authority in such matters. So in that sense, they are rightfully under His governance and leadership.
Contradicts this :
He allows free choice;
No contradiction at all.

Did you have a father? Did he allow you free choice in anything? Was he your father? Were you his child?

Where's the contradiction?
You're walking down the street with a child beside you.

Somebody walks up to you and says, "Is that your daughter?"

How do you answer?
The question is actually something like "did you father this child?" or "are you taking responsibility for this child?"
It's much more than that.

You can't answer, "Well, I donated the sperm, but she's not my kid." People will obviously want to know if you have any legitimate custody of a child you also confess is not legitimately yours. If you don't, then you're interfering with a child who belongs to somebody else.

And you certainly cannot answer, "No, not my child; just one I'm 'taking responsiblity' for."

That answer will land you in jail. You can't just decide to meddle with a child that's not really yours.
If you really believe that God owns everybody, then she belongs to God and not to me. Right?
Again, there's no inconsistency.

God owns everything and everyone. But He designates to humans, by way of stewardship, the right ot own things as well...but under His authority, not by way of some imagined authority of their own.

Did you ever read John Locke? He covers all this quite nicely.

It's not an either-or, it's a both-and. Your child belongs proximally to you, in that you are the legitimate custodian of her. But that right you get from God, who is the ultimate rightful owner of both you and her.

And what you do to her, you answer to God for. That's as true in the womb as out of it, as well.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:20 pm Abortion is not murder any more than eating cabbage it
Well, you're going to find out.

I've told you, anyway.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8529
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:20 pm Abortion is not murder any more than eating cabbage it
Well, you're going to find out.

I've told you, anyway.
:lol: :lol:
Now you have completely lost the plot.

Don't forget to do your prayers five times a day pointing to Meccah, else you might "find out"
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7208
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm You don't like "snippets," you say -- then you write messages the length of essays, which would require me to respond in an essay of double length, if I didn't cut to the relevant.

So you really have two options: be short,and maybe use more, shorter messages to get your points across (I recommend one major point per post, for readability's sake for others) or get used to snippets. There's no alternative on a forum like this. It's not fair to people to get too lengthy. Understandably, nobody wants to read messages here that are too lengthy and have no concise point.
Look, I've always surmised that my take on snippets here is rooted subjectively, existentially in dasein. Not unlike my take on God. So, by all means, we can agree to disagree on what it entails.

After all, you're the objectivist here. You're the one who connects the ontological and teleological dots between abortion, the Christian God and Judgment Day. You're the one who insists that in regard to abortion our very souls are at stake.

Right?
iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:26 am But in order to believe in a God, the God, my God, I need others to take Him here:

1] a demonstrable proof of the existence of your God or religious/spiritual path
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pmYou have, at the minimum, the very "evidence" you demanded -- that you know as certainly as you "know" the Pope is in Rome, that you know God exists.

You say that the way you "know" that the Pope is in Rome is by the testimony of others -- for you say you have not been there yourself.

Yet others also declare their knowledge of God, and tell you that He exists. I would be one of those, but so would all the writers of the Bible, and millions of other Christians and Jews.

So the standard you said you wanted has been fully met. What do you want now?
Note to others:

Be honest. How can someone who equates demonstrating the existence of the Christian God in Heaven as he does above with demonstrating the existence of the Pope in the Vatican not be afflicted with one or another mental "condition"?

How is his "standard" of evidence here not ridiculous?

The only way most of us might argue that there is not sufficient evidence that the Pope, really, really, really does reside in the Vatican is to suggest something akin to solipsism or sim worlds or dream worlds or something out of the Matrix.
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Well, it's not "mine," in the sense that I didn't invent it; it's only "mine" in the sense that among all these, I chose it.

I invariably find that people who speak of "hundreds of religious paths" and such have investigated either very few or none of them. So it seems odd that they want to assert this as a problem. I don't think it's nearly the problem you imagine it to be.
Come on, IC, like they can't argue exactly the same thing about you and your God.

As for it being a problem, if you believe that God provides us with objective morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side, and you note that down through the ages there have been countless religious denominations all claiming to provide us with the One True Path to them...

That isn't a problem for us mere mortals?

Only unlike most of them it's not a Kierkegaardian leap of faith to God, it's "evidence" that in fact He does exist. The kind of evidence that no reasonable man or woman can possibly deny.

This kind of "evidence":

https://youtu.be/hHXXacBAm2A
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... SjDNeMaRoX

Indeed, after watching these videos, I challenge anyone here to still doubt that the Christian God resides in Heaven.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Compare them, and you'll find out which path is really rational, moral and truthful. I suggest you start by considering carefully the life of Jesus Christ, and compare him to any other religious figure you choose. You will know when you do that. And it won't take you long.
Please. How is this not the sort of "argument" one would expect to encounter in church or around the dinner table at home or on a Christian website or in a social media venue.

But at the Philosophy Now magazine forum?!!
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods and religious/spiritual faiths
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Well, that is a problem: "dasein," for you, has no meaning. You say you're not using Heidegger's version, or anybody else's -- it's your own, you say. So nobody but you knowns what you mean by "dasein." When I asked, you, yourself were unable to tell me what your definition of it is. :shock: Absent that, nobody can even know what it is you're asking...
All I can do is to note the points I raise about dasein in the OPs here:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

To note how, in regard to our moral and political and spiritual value judgments, I believe we go about acquiring a sense of identity. And to ask others to note how and why this is not applicable to them.

In regard to such controversial issues as abortion.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm If I understood your question, there's a very good chance I could respond to it. But it's not at all clear to me what your concealed meaning is.
Here of course I suggest that 1] if we do in fact live in a world that is not wholly determined by brains wholly in sync with the laws of matter and 2] if you are not afflicted with a "condition" making your posts here "beyond your control", then you reject my meaning for the same reason all of the other objectivists do: in order to sustain the comfort and the consolation you crave in convincing yourself that you really are on the One True Path.

And that all of the others here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions -- who insist it is another path instead are just plain wrong. Trust me: to a path they will all be insisting that you are.
4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God or religious/spiritual path
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm You'll have to tell me which "questions" you mean. "Revolve around" doesn't tell me much.
Well, let's go back to this question:

How would an omniscient and omnipotent Christian God said to be loving, just and merciful explain this:

"...the endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages."

You respond:
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm Nobody says God "creates" these things. Well, animists do, maybe...they have "gods" that "create" all sorts of phenomena, from crops growing to lightning bolts. But no Christian thinks that's what these things mean.

You need to update your theology.
Prompting me to note...
Let's go to the Bible:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The heavens that from time to time send asteroids and comets our way bringing about "extinction events". And the Earth which was hard-wired by God to bring about that "endless procession" above.

And who was it other than God that created human biology with its countless terrible medical afflictions that make life a living hell [eventually] for all of us.
Prompting you to note...
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pm Christian theology says we live in a broken, disrupted world, wherein mankind has rejected God. Natural disasters are not God getting angry, nor God punishing people, nor any such simplistic idea as that. It's a natural product of our disjuncture from the Source of life, health and goodness, which we human beings have ourselves caused.
Prompting me to note...

Ah, a necessary adjunct of Original Sin. All the rest of us still being punished for something we didn't even do ourselves. Use that to explain away these terrible conditions:

https://www.onhealth.com/content/1/chil ... _sick_kids
https://sph.umich.edu/pursuit/2020posts ... llosa.html
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chi ... conditions

Finally...
...down to this:
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:38 am
That's the God we have.

But you don't seem to want that, after all. Because He's provided all that already, and you don't want what he is offering.
From my frame of mind, he hasn't a clue as to how to respond substantively to the points I raise.

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pmGod doesn't?

Or I don't?

If it's God, that's an amusing thought. If it's me, I've just responded above. So either way, it seems you spoke too soon.
Well, if there is a Christian God and a Judgment Day, then, when the time comes, I'll ask Him.

As for you, all I'm noting is that given my own subjective reaction to your posts here [and that's all it is, my own personal opinion rooted existentially in dasein] your points strike me as so clearly inadequate for a philosophy forum, that a 'condition" is one possible explanation.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Слава Україні!

Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

phyllo wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:35 pm

As Father, God has absolute right of authority in such matters. So in that sense, they are rightfully under His governance and leadership.

Contradicts this :

He allows free choice;

No contradiction at all.

Did you have a father? Did he allow you free choice in anything? Was he your father? Were you his child?

Where's the contradiction?
I gave you 3 examples which were contradicted by 4 examples.

You cherry pick these two for your response.

And your response is five questions.

:shock:
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:00 pm

No. It's written into your very existence, and the fundamental level...somewhat more important than "law," I would say.

No, "murder" is immoral killing. 8)

It's a crime against mankind, and a crime against God. It's the willful, deliberate ending of another person's life...like abortion.
I’m sorry, but you are just making all this shit up to make yourself look like a clever dick without the slightest shred of evidence for what you are saying except what you wishfully believe to be so.

One could just as easily say something like…Nature, the unknowable force that spawns sentient life forms into existence just so that they will die, sometimes in the most agonising and excruciating ways….nature is an immoral serial killer. Nature’s ways are a crime against itself.

Truth is…If humans had not made up their own man made laws regarding the killing our own species and just allowed the killing our own species to happen without punishment ….just as animals kill other animals without punishing each other. And just as humans kill animals for their own edible consumption without punishment…and that killing was just accepted as a normal part of the nature living life….which is what actually goes on in the animal kingdom anyway….then just Imagine that scenario? What would a God intervention look like? ….truth is, you have absolutely no idea…because you just make all this God shit up in your head. God lives inside your head in the same way, Santa does.

Truth is, man invented morality not nature, the law not to kill its own species, is man made, it’s not God law….but you have a very below normal intelligence to realise that simple truth.

You IC are the victim of emotions….that’s all, doesn’t it ever occur to you why animals never build churches of religious worship?
Last edited by Dontaskme on Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22257
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:41 pm ...existentially in dasein...
Nobody, including you, apparently, has any idea what you think you mean by that.
After all, you're the objectivist here. You're the one who connects the ontological and teleological dots between abortion, the Christian God and Judgment Day. You're the one who insists that in regard to abortion our very souls are at stake.

Right?
No. Abortion, like any other sin, can be forgiven. But one has to see it for what it is, be ashamed, and ask for that forgiveness. Otherwise, like any other sin, abortion occasions judgment.
iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:26 am How can someone who equates demonstrating the existence of the Christian God in Heaven as he does above with demonstrating the existence of the Pope in the Vatican not be afflicted with one or another mental "condition"?
It was your demand and your test. Not mine.

So if the standard you set is "ridiculous," as you now say, then it's your own "ridiculousness."

I gave you exactly what you asked for: don't blame me if your standard was weak. I warned you it was. 8)
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Well, it's not "mine," in the sense that I didn't invent it; it's only "mine" in the sense that among all these, I chose it.

I invariably find that people who speak of "hundreds of religious paths" and such have investigated either very few or none of them. So it seems odd that they want to assert this as a problem. I don't think it's nearly the problem you imagine it to be.
Come on, IC, like they can't argue exactly the same thing about you and your God.

Go and find out. That's the only way to do it. See if what any of them claim holds up.
As for it being a problem, if you believe that God provides us with objective morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side, and you note that down through the ages there have been countless religious denominations all claiming to provide us with the One True Path to them...
No, you don't believe that...not if you know anything about what those "religions" or "paths" actually say.

You can only believe that by not knowing any of them at all, really.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Compare them, and you'll find out which path is really rational, moral and truthful. I suggest you start by considering carefully the life of Jesus Christ, and compare him to any other religious figure you choose. You will know when you do that. And it won't take you long.
Please.
In stead of doubting, just do it. Then you won't need anybody to tell you.
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods and religious/spiritual faiths
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Well, that is a problem: "dasein," for you, has no meaning. You say you're not using Heidegger's version, or anybody else's -- it's your own, you say. So nobody but you knowns what you mean by "dasein." When I asked, you, yourself were unable to tell me what your definition of it is. :shock: Absent that, nobody can even know what it is you're asking...
All I can do is to note the points I raise about dasein in the OPs here:
No, no... no running away. Just give your definition.

Do it right here.
The heavens that from time to time send asteroids and comets our way bringing about "extinction events". And the Earth which was hard-wired by God to bring about that "endless procession" above.

Are you "extinct"? I hadn't noticed. :wink:

No, you're not. so you have no such complaint against God.
And who was it other than God that created human biology with its countless terrible medical afflictions that make life a living hell [eventually] for all of us.[
The Bible says our biology was made good, and had no such characteristics. But mankind's choice to reject the Source of Life and Health Himself led to the inevitable fall, not just of mankind but of the creation of which he/she has been given stewardship.
All the rest of us still being punished for something we didn't even do ourselves.
Are you saying you don't sin?

God says you do.
Well, if there is a Christian God and a Judgment Day, then, when the time comes, I'll ask Him.
You'll be too busy then. You'll be trying to think of what your own answer should have been.

My advice: prepare your answer now.

P.S. -- I see you're not taking my advice to keep your responses reasonably concise and focused. Okay. But expect snipping. There's a lot of "fat on the bone" here.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

IC….what would a God intervention for the immoral actions of man look like? If they hadn’t bothered to make killing their own species immoral or illegal or wrong, and that they just allowed it to happen without punishment?

If you cannot answer these questions…then we’ll just assume you have no idea what you are talking about, regarding the idea of a judging God.
Post Reply