Abortion

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:54 pm What one person deems to be immoral in any particular context another person is able to rationalize as the right thing to do.
Right. So Westerners deem woman to have rights, and other cultures deem them to be subhumans who can be raped or sold. You're fine with that?
Either way what's important is that you are able to think yourself into believing that your own font is the One True Path.
So Islamists who own slaves and rape children...okay by you, because they believe they're in the one truth path? :shock:
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

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Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:37 pm
Because they create children and then murder them. That would be evil.
That the Lord Jesus Christ died for us – a shameful death. It is like what abusers do when they say, “I love you so much” – it's hideous.

You IC have knowingly allowed yourself to be bent over and screwed in the arse by your stupid dumb insane beliefs, your obession with eternal life is embarrassing, because as you very well know, we're all going to that same one mysterious place called death, it's where we came from, and it's where we live while we are temporally alive, and it's where we'll be when we die. Why can't you just accept the truth, and stop pissing your deluded fantasies in the faces of intelligent people. What the Whoopie God Damn Doo is wrong with Death IC? you absolute freak of nature.
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Sculptor
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:53 pm 100% of all abortion are the result of a woman or girl not feeling able to bring up child, or have issues around pregnancy
:lol: "Have issues"? "Have issues"?

Classic. So you can kill people if you "have issues around" them? Aren't you a lovely person.
Yeah have issues. Issues, that boys like you will never have to face.
Foetuses are not people and god kills more foetuses than are born.

As for "people" there are far too many of them. Population have increased by 39,000,000 this year alone.
That is more than the natural population of humans before we started to screw up the world with tech.

And your 1% of rape victims? Are you going them throw them under the bus?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:01 pm Yeah have issues. Issues, that boys like you will never have to face.
Like being a responsible human being? Not being promiscuous? Not forgetting contraception? Those kinds of "issues"?
Foetuses are not people
What do you think they are, goats? :lol:
As for "people" there are far too many of them.
Myth.

World population can be controlled by one simple strategy: the education of women. Educated women have an average of less than two children.
And your 1% of rape victims? Are you going them throw them under the bus?
Are you admitting that the 99% are evil? If not, they it's you who's "throwing them under the bus" in order to justify the irresponsibility of the 99%.

You don't cure murder by more murder.
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phyllo
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

Because they create children and then murder them. That would be evil.
They didn't create and they didn't murder children because the fetus is not a child. Therefore, they are not evil.
But if you don't want to say that the 99% are evil, then your mention of the 1% was not sincere. You were only "interested in their welfare" in order to excuse the 99%. So you weren't really concerned about them at all. You just used them. They were never your real concern.
What the hell are you talking about?

You said in your example that the woman created a daughter by choice.

And I replied that women who have abortions didn't choose to get pregnant. They chose to have sex or they had sex forced on them.

So why did you twist it?
We can't. Because the aborters do not "know" what a child is. They just "think" they can murder her.
The abortionists don't know but you know?

How did you get perfect knowledge?
Sure. The baby respirates long before birth. She has her own brainwaves, fingerprints, circulatory system, pulse, volition, and so on, as well. So I assume you must mean, "The first breath while she is not inside the mother"?
"Babies don’t breathe in the womb as we understand “breathing.” Instead, babies rely on their birthing parent’s breathing to receive oxygen in their developing organs.

After 9 months of growing inside a pregnant person’s body, a baby undergoes a complicated physical transition as they exit the womb. Research shows this transition is one of the most intricate things the body does.

While babies “practice” breathing in utero, they don’t use their lungs for breathing until they take their first breath outside the womb."
https://www.healthline.com/health/pregn ... n-the-womb
Justify that. What magic makes the influx of oxygen, the taking of the first independent breath, the benchmark of humanness? And how are we to know that you are right, since we have to make a law for everybody here?
It's in the Bible.
Last edited by phyllo on Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:55 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:53 pm 100% of all abortion are the result of a woman or girl not feeling able to bring up child, or have issues around pregnancy
:lol: "Have issues"? "Have issues"?

Classic. So you can kill people if you "have issues around" them? Aren't you a lovely person.
Don't you know that making babies is sentencing them to death.....you braindead fucking bimbo.

Why don't you stop the evil, instead of waiting for eternity for some made-up non-entity to show up, to judge us and send us all to hell for our sins. The only hell there is here, is the one you create everytime you impregnate a woman, and then you have the audacity to call her the evil one... But you are too thick and cowardly to take part responsibilty. Debating cold hard truths with you is like talking to a bag of rocks.

Lets make sex before marriage evil and illegal. :shock: Lets make men leaving their wifes evil and illegal. :shock: Lets make women leaving their husbands evil and illegal. :shock: Lets make creating babies who's only destiny is heartache, abuse, pain, suffering, misery and a life time of sin, where their only relief will be their eventual death, yeah, lets make that an evil and illegal act of love. :shock:

What a joke your beliefs are IC..you have been so screwed over, it's hard to tell if your crooked back is a permanent condition that you and you alone allowed to happen to you.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:17 pm
You don't cure murder by more murder.
You cure murder by abstaining from sex completely..this is not rocket science. And since you cannot give up your addiction to pleasure, your murderous addictions will continue. Why, because you would rather have your own son murdered than give up your own selfish desires to sire.

This is your belief in a nutshell, that you are too dumb and stupid to understand, in your foolish willingness to hand over your own critical thinking mechanism, to some cartoon character.

Do not forget to watch this video, for some cold hard truth that you refuse to look at, I know you do love to ignore the hard truths.. ...Pope Says Ditch The Fur Babies And Have Some Kids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slHLHbWfXwk
Last edited by Dontaskme on Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:17 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:01 pm Yeah have issues. Issues, that boys like you will never have to face.
Like being a responsible human being? Not being promiscuous? Not forgetting contraception? Those kinds of "issues"?
Foetuses are not people
What do you think they are, goats? :lol:
No, more like globs of flesh. More like goat liver.
As for "people" there are far too many of them.
Myth.
Fact.
The natural earth was capable of sustaining an estimated 5 -10 million before agriculture.

World population can be controlled by one simple strategy: the education of women. Educated women have an average of less than two children.
But idiots like you just peddle lies, sadly.
And your 1% of rape victims? Are you going them throw them under the bus?
Are you admitting that the 99% are evil? If not, they it's you who's "throwing them under the bus" in order to justify the irresponsibility of the 99%.
No you are the only evil in this conversation.

You don't cure murder by more murder.
Tell that the the biggest abortionist in the universe: god.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:44 pm No you are the only evil in this conversation.
You are wasting your time on people like IC..he's in bed with Jordan Peterson, so there is definitely no hope for humanity while these two are alive and kicking spawning their BS... Children are food for the believers, no kids, no food, no food, and the whole belief system shrivels up like a salamander in the sun. They simply cannot handle this truth...so they need evil to exist, it's totally sick.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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phyllo
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

Failure rates of contraception :
Intrauterine Contraception

Levonorgestrel intrauterine system (LNG IUD)—The LNG IUD is a small T-shaped device like the Copper T IUD. It is placed inside the uterus by a doctor. It releases a small amount of progestin each day to keep you from getting pregnant. The LNG IUD stays in your uterus for up to 3 to 6 years, depending on the device. Typical use failure rate: 0.1-0.4%.

Copper T intrauterine device (IUD)—This IUD is a small device that is shaped in the form of a “T.” Your doctor places it inside the uterus to prevent pregnancy. It can stay in your uterus for up to 10 years. Typical use failure rate: 0.8%.

Hormonal Methods

Implant—The implant is a single, thin rod that is inserted under the skin of a women’s upper arm. The rod contains a progestin that is released into the body over 3 years. Typical use failure rate: 0.1%.

Injection or “shot”—Women get shots of the hormone progestin in the buttocks or arm every three months from their doctor. Typical use failure rate: 4%.

Combined oral contraceptives—Also called “the pill,” combined oral contraceptives contain the hormones estrogen and progestin. It is prescribed by a doctor. A pill is taken at the same time each day. If you are older than 35 years and smoke, have a history of blood clots or breast cancer, your doctor may advise you not to take the pill. Typical use failure rate: 7%.

Progestin only pill—Unlike the combined pill, the progestin-only pill (sometimes called the mini-pill) only has one hormone, progestin, instead of both estrogen and progestin. It is prescribed by a doctor. It is taken at the same time each day. It may be a good option for women who can’t take estrogen. Typical use failure rate: 7%.
birth control patch

Patch—This skin patch is worn on the lower abdomen, buttocks, or upper body (but not on the breasts). This method is prescribed by a doctor. It releases hormones progestin and estrogen into the bloodstream. You put on a new patch once a week for three weeks. During the fourth week, you do not wear a patch, so you can have a menstrual period. Typical use failure rate: 7%.

Hormonal vaginal contraceptive ring—The ring releases the hormones progestin and estrogen. You place the ring inside your vagina. You wear the ring for three weeks, take it out for the week you have your period, and then put in a new ring. Typical use failure rate: 7%.

Barrier Methods

Diaphragm or cervical cap—Each of these barrier methods are placed inside the vagina to cover the cervix to block sperm. The diaphragm is shaped like a shallow cup. The cervical cap is a thimble-shaped cup. Before sexual intercourse, you insert them with spermicide to block or kill sperm. Visit your doctor for a proper fitting because diaphragms and cervical caps come in different sizes. Typical use failure rate for the diaphragm: 17%.

Sponge—The contraceptive sponge contains spermicide and is placed in the vagina where it fits over the cervix. The sponge works for up to 24 hours, and must be left in the vagina for at least 6 hours after the last act of intercourse, at which time it is removed and discarded. Typical use failure rate: 14% for women who have never had a baby and 27% for women who have had a baby.

Male condom—Worn by the man, a male condom keeps sperm from getting into a woman’s body. Latex condoms, the most common type, help prevent pregnancy, and HIV and other STDs, as do the newer synthetic condoms. “Natural” or “lambskin” condoms also help prevent pregnancy, but may not provide protection against STDs, including HIV. Typical use failure rate: 13%. Condoms can only be used once. You can buy condoms, KY jelly, or water-based lubricants at a drug store. Do not use oil-based lubricants such as massage oils, baby oil, lotions, or petroleum jelly with latex condoms. They will weaken the condom, causing it to tear or break.

Female condom—Worn by the woman, the female condom helps keeps sperm from getting into her body. It is packaged with a lubricant and is available at drug stores. It can be inserted up to eight hours before sexual intercourse. Typical use failure rate: 21%, and also may help prevent STDs.

Spermicides—These products work by killing sperm and come in several forms—foam, gel, cream, film, suppository, or tablet. They are placed in the vagina no more than one hour before intercourse. You leave them in place at least six to eight hours after intercourse. You can use a spermicide in addition to a male condom, diaphragm, or cervical cap. They can be purchased at drug stores. Typical use failure rate: 21%.

Fertility Awareness-Based Methods

Fertility awareness-based methods—Understanding your monthly fertility patternexternal iconexternal icon can help you plan to get pregnant or avoid getting pregnant. Your fertility pattern is the number of days in the month when you are fertile (able to get pregnant), days when you are infertile, and days when fertility is unlikely, but possible. If you have a regular menstrual cycle, you have about nine or more fertile days each month. If you do not want to get pregnant, you do not have sex on the days you are fertile, or you use a barrier method of birth control on those days. Failure rates vary across these methods.1-2 Range of typical use failure rates: 2-23%.

Lactational Amenorrhea Method

For women who have recently had a baby and are breastfeeding, the Lactational Amenorrhea Method (LAM) can be used as birth control when three conditions are met: 1) amenorrhea (not having any menstrual periods after delivering a baby), 2) fully or nearly fully breastfeeding, and 3) less than 6 months after delivering a baby. LAM is a temporary method of birth control, and another birth control method must be used when any of the three conditions are not met.
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/ ... /index.htm
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Sculptor
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:53 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:44 pm No you are the only evil in this conversation.
You are wasting your time on people like IC..he's in bed with Jordan Peterson, so there is definitely no hope for humanity while these two are alive and kicking spawning their BS... Children are food for the believers, no kids, no food, no food, and the whole belief system shrivels up like a salamander in the sun. They simply cannot handle this truth...so they need evil to exist, it's totally sick.
Religion is fucking evil.
IC is vile. He does not give a flying fuck for anyone but himself and his own disgraceful belief system. He just wants to impose his out-of-date controlling bankrupt morality on the world
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:03 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:53 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:44 pm No you are the only evil in this conversation.
You are wasting your time on people like IC..he's in bed with Jordan Peterson, so there is definitely no hope for humanity while these two are alive and kicking spawning their BS... Children are food for the believers, no kids, no food, no food, and the whole belief system shrivels up like a salamander in the sun. They simply cannot handle this truth...so they need evil to exist, it's totally sick.
Religion is fucking evil.
IC is vile. He does not give a flying fuck for anyone but himself and his own disgraceful belief system. He just wants to impose his out-of-date controlling bankrupt morality on the world
I agree, it took me awhile to figure out I was being bent over by political and religious belief.

So yeah, the sociopathic psychopaths are running the asylum... over my fucking dead body.
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iambiguous
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Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:54 pm
Just for the record, given my own subjective assumption that we live in a No God world, I believe that each of us as individuals acquire our views about abortion and murder [on this side of the womb] existentially.

For personal reasons rooted largely in the life that we live, a life subsumed historically and culturally and experientially out in particular worlds understood in particular ways, we come to choose one set of behaviors rather than another.

What one person deems to be immoral in any particular context another person is able to rationalize as the right thing to do. And the reasons here are embedded in the extraordinary complexities embodied in all of the countless possible genetic and memetic variables and permutations.

Lives can be so far removed from other lives that who is really able to take that into account in order provide us with the optimal set of behaviors. Or, for some, even the only behaviors that, deontologically, all rational and virtuous men and women are said to be obligated to choose.

Abortion is just a particular stark behavior because it revolves literally around life and death
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pmRight. So Westerners deem woman to have rights, and other cultures deem them to be subhumans who can be raped or sold. You're fine with that?
Come on, Mr. Snippet, what on Earth does this out of the blue retort have to do with my point above? You're not going over the edge, are you? Though you won't be the first fulminating fanatic objectivist I have driven to that.
Now, in order to make this uncertainly, this ambiguity and this precariousness go away, there are any number of moral fonts around to anchor one's Self in: God and religion, ideology, deontology, Nature.

Some are indoctrinated as children to embrace them, others live lives that predispose them to them.

Either way what's important is that you are able to think yourself into believing that your own font is the One True Path. For some just on this side of the grave, for others on both sides.

Objectivists I call them.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pmSo Islamists who own slaves and rape children...okay by you, because they believe they're in the one truth path? :shock:
Please, Mr. Snippet, what's that next to the Christian God creating "...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages."

Then back to the Christian God's own abortions...miscarriages. Back to this:
"Miscarriage is generally defined as the loss of a pregnancy before viability. An estimated 23 million miscarriages occur every year worldwide, translating to 44 pregnancy losses each minute." National Library of Medicine

Now, true, some of these miscarriages occur as a result of decisions that we mere mortals make...consuming alcohol and tobacco and drugs for example.

But millions upon millions of others occur as a result of how God [if there is one] created human biology to function once a pregnancy occurs. Sometimes a birth occurs, other times it doesn't. Meanwhile those women who did everything they were supposed to do to bring about a healthy newborn are devastated.

And yet even then most won't blame God. They'll convince themselves it's all just a part of God's plan. After all, what's the alternative? No God and the miscarriage "just happened"...just another manifestation of the brute facticity that is the human condition in a No God world.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:17 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:01 pm Foetuses are not people
What do you think they are, goats? :lol:
No, more like globs of flesh. More like goat liver.
They're decidedly not that...they're certainly genetically human, whatever else you might suppose.
Myth.
Fact.
Still myth.
The natural earth was capable of sustaining an estimated 5 -10 million before agriculture.
"Before agriculture"? We have agriculture. And we have modern agriculture. We have, in fact, more than enough food to feed the world, if we dealt with it responsibly.
World population can be controlled by one simple strategy: the education of women. Educated women have an average of less than two children.
But ...
It's true... Check it out. Educating women is the right strategy from every side.
No you are the only evil in this conversation.
Heh. :D You can't become evil for not-killing innocents.

You can, by doing it...or even by advocating it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:13 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:54 pm
Just for the record, given my own subjective assumption that we live in a No God world, I believe that each of us as individuals acquire our views about abortion and murder [on this side of the womb] existentially.

For personal reasons rooted largely in the life that we live, a life subsumed historically and culturally and experientially out in particular worlds understood in particular ways, we come to choose one set of behaviors rather than another.

What one person deems to be immoral in any particular context another person is able to rationalize as the right thing to do. And the reasons here are embedded in the extraordinary complexities embodied in all of the countless possible genetic and memetic variables and permutations.

Lives can be so far removed from other lives that who is really able to take that into account in order provide us with the optimal set of behaviors. Or, for some, even the only behaviors that, deontologically, all rational and virtuous men and women are said to be obligated to choose.

Abortion is just a particular stark behavior because it revolves literally around life and death
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pmRight. So Westerners deem woman to have rights, and other cultures deem them to be subhumans who can be raped or sold. You're fine with that?
Come on, Mr. Snippet, what on Earth does this out of the blue retort have to do with my point above?
You don't condemn anything, it seems. You just take complete moral relativism for how things are. So it has a lot to do with your self-descriptive work above.
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:58 pmSo Islamists who own slaves and rape children...okay by you, because they believe they're in the one truth path? :shock:
...what's that next to the Christian God creating "...an endless procession
Nobody says God "creates" these things. Well, animists do, maybe...they have "gods" that "create" all sorts of phenomena, from crops growing to lightning bolts. But no Christian thinks that's what these things mean.

You need to update your theology.

Likewise, this: "Miscarriage is generally defined as the loss of a pregnancy before viability. An estimated 23 million miscarriages occur every year worldwide, translating to 44 pregnancy losses each minute." National Library of Medicine

And as you point out:
...most won't blame God.
So why do you?

Christian theology says we live in a broken, disrupted world, wherein mankind has rejected God. Natural disasters are not God getting angry, nor God punishing people, nor any such simplistic idea as that. It's a natural product of our disjuncture from the Source of life, health and goodness, which we human beings have ourselves caused.

You won't like that: but the alternative is worse. It's called "death," and it's the inevitable outcome of living creatures having rejected God. Unplug yourself from the source of life, and you'll run down fast.

Seen this way, you realize that being allowed a chance to live, and to choose differently, even in an imperfect world, is vastly preferable to what we really have coming to us.

So what do you want? Do you want to rail against God and die? Or do you want something better? The choice is yours. And you have time and space to decide now, because God is not allowing this imperfect world to crash completely...yet. As the Bible says, "God is patient toward you, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
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