Abortion

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8477
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Who wins through the repeal of Roe V Wade?

1. Self satisfied Christians, who want to impose unwanted babies on reluctant mothers.
2. People who make money from back street abortions.
3. People who make money in trafficking children across state lines.
4. Rapists who get their genetic code through to the next generation to breed a new generation of rapists.
5. Prisons who will get a boost of new delinquents in about 18 years time..

So America can pat itself on the back for a job well done.
Iwannaplato
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Iwannaplato »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:41 pm It depends on the denomination but the most common Christian interpretation is that children go to hell.
To avoid that fate, there is infant baptism in some denominations.
I don't think most would say that those children would go to Hell. Some believe the only way to guarantee Heaven is Baptism and so baptised two years olds would go to Heaven. Unborn childred who are misscarried or aborted, well the Catholics tend to think they go to Heaven.

And if God wouldn't send an unborn aborted soul to heaven or a two year old unbaptised child to heaven, these then the Christians who believe that should be just as angry if not more so at their deity. Especially given what Jesus said...

Let the children come to me, do not hinder them

and then also all the talk of God's mercy....The Lord is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness.

Look at it this way. If someone kills a child, this awefulness is dwarfed by God tortuing that child forever. So, a child getting hit by a bus gets tortured forever by God. Earthly murderers and committing misdemeanors compared to God.

The Christian God as conceived by some. But I do not see priests and pastors saying that killed and dead children are going to Hell. Without much exception they say they are in heaven now with God or with Jesus. He needed them there and all the other things they say.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8477
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:33 pm
phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:41 pm It depends on the denomination but the most common Christian interpretation is that children go to hell.
To avoid that fate, there is infant baptism in some denominations.
I don't think most would say that those children would go to Hell. Some believe the only way to guarantee Heaven is Baptism and so baptised two years olds would go to Heaven. Unborn childred who are misscarried or aborted, well the Catholics tend to think they go to Heaven.
Why are last rites so important? I thought god was supposed to be all knowing.

Babies are born into original sin according to the bible. Apparently that gives a job for the priest.
It seems god is not capable of granting everlasting life unless a priest is involved.

And if God wouldn't send an unborn aborted soul to heaven or a two year old unbaptised child to heaven, these then the Christians who believe that should be just as angry if not more so at their deity. Especially given what Jesus said...

Let the children come to me, do not hinder them
Suffer the little children.
Those poor Catholic priests seem to misunderstand the phrase.

and then also all the talk of God's mercy....The Lord is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness.

Look at it this way. If someone kills a child, this awefulness is dwarfed by God tortuing that child forever. So, a child getting hit by a bus gets tortured forever by God. Earthly murderers and committing misdemeanors compared to God.

The Christian God as conceived by some. But I do not see priests and pastors saying that killed and dead children are going to Hell. Without much exception they say they are in heaven now with God or with Jesus. He needed them there and all the other things they say.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 1465
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Слава Україні!

Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

Babies are born into original sin according to the bible. Apparently that gives a job for the priest.
It seems god is not capable of granting everlasting life unless a priest is involved.
If a Christian believes in original sin, then children have original sin from the beginning. Therefore, they need to be baptized or born again in order to enter heaven. That is the reasoning.

If you throw out original sin, then you can say that children are innocent and they go to heaven. This would apply until they consciously sin.

That's the "feel good" answer.
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

On the contrary, "abortion is now banned in at least eight states,
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:51 am Only eight? What a shame. It should be all of them.
Come on, above you asserted that, "We don't know. It hasn't happened yet." You were wrong even about the facts. Yet here you are basically insisting that you are right that abortion ought to be banned in all fifty states. Perhaps you are wrong here as well. But you are never wrong about good and evil, are you? Why? Because "in your head" you know the Christian God's views on abortion. And, as luck would have it, they coincide with your own views.

And on miscarriages too? Aren't they God's own abortions?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:51 am However, whether it's banned or not at the state level has nothing to do with the SC. That's what this finding means. It's simply not a matter upon which the SC has jurisdiction to rule. It's a state matter, one way or the other. That's what they've concluded.
Right, their ruling sent it back to the states but that has nothing to do with their ruling that sent it back to the states.

And the blue state officials that actually beef up the rights of women to choose an abortion...they'll get theirs on Judgment Day?
And, again, just out of curiosity, for those who support this ruling, if a woman you know and love either performs or obtains an abortion in a jurisdiction where they are made illegal, do you turn her into the law?

Is she in fact a premeditated murderer who is, if convicted of this crime, morally justified in being executed by the state?
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:51 am Here's my answer.

Let's say you have a female whom you know and love. She has a daughter she created by choice. But one day, she takes her two-year-old daughter, sticks a pair of scissors in the back of her neck, sucks her brain out with a vaccum, then calmly tears her arms and legs off, then maybe flushes them away, or even allows them to be sold on the organ market.

Her crime is discovered. What penalty do you prescribe?

When you answer, you'll have answered your own question.
So, you are telling us that, yes, if a woman that you know and love chooses an abortion, you turn her over to the law.

She is guilty of premeditated murder and deserves to be arrested and tried. And if found guilty sentenced to life in prison. Or, in some states, sent to death row.

The Christian God is okay with state executions, right?

How about if she was gang raped or was the victim of incest? How about if she takes the abortion pill? How about if her mental health would be damaged if forced to give birth? Or her physical health?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:53 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:51 am Let's say you have a female whom you know and love. She has a daughter she created by choice. But one day, she takes her two-year-old daughter, sticks a pair of scissors in the back of her neck, sucks her brain out with a vaccum, then calmly tears her arms and legs off, then maybe flushes them away, or even allows them to be sold on the organ market.

Her crime is discovered. What penalty do you prescribe?

When you answer, you'll have answered your own question.
Iamb who does not believe in an afterlife would likely be influenced by that in his decision.
But you would not?

So are both infanticide and abortion okay by you, or are both immoral, in your view?

It seems that in either case, you regard them as the same, right?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:41 pm
She has a daughter she created by choice.
Most women who have abortions didn't choose to get pregnant
Statistically, 99% of abortions are requested as a product of consensual sexual relations. Less than 1% are as a result of rape, incest, etc.

In other words, it's used as last-ditch, "contraception" by those who behaved badly or failed to take responsiblity for themselves.

And if you will stipulate that the 99% are evil, then I'll happily talk with you about the 1%.
But one day, she takes her two-year-old daughter, ...
A two-year-old is a human being without doubt. Many people don't think that a fetus is a human being.
"Think" changes nothing. Either an in-utero child is a child, or it is not. What one elects to "think" will make no factual difference at all.

But if you want to, you can explain the difference to me between a child out of the womb by .0001 seconds, and one about to be out of the womb by the same amount of time. Why is one a case of murder, and the other not?
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:56 pm On the contrary, "abortion is now banned in at least eight states,
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:51 amOnly eight? What a shame. It should be all of them.


Here's my answer.

Let's say you have a female whom you know and love. She has a daughter she created by choice. But one day, she takes her two-year-old daughter, sticks a pair of scissors in the back of her neck, sucks her brain out with a vaccum, then calmly tears her arms and legs off, then maybe flushes them away, or even allows them to be sold on the organ market.

Her crime is discovered. What penalty do you prescribe?

When you answer, you'll have answered your own question.
There is no smoke without fire...can Can answer: what role does the male who took the risk of impregnating the female have in all this anti- abortion issue?..isn't the male also prescribed a penalty? after all, he too knows the risk of pregnancy, after all, it takes two to tango.


Is Sex Before Marriage a Sin? The Biblical Truth - Christianity https://www.christianity.com › Wiki › Sin
The Bible promotes complete abstinence before marriage. Sex between a husband and his wife is the only form of sexual relations of which God approves.


According to God's law, should we be making sex before marriage illegal too? I mean how ridiculous does societies political and religious holy doctrines have to get before people just literally blow their lids...and say fuck off to their cult leaders.

And what's wrong with euthanizing the fetus. And what about the baby being born to a mother who doesn't want it, who is at risk of causing it abuse in her anger of being forced to have it. And the additional mental trauma on the child if it's taken from it's natural birth mother and put into some strange other institutional care home...the abuse list is endless for the poor child...who knows where it's destiny will end up, the world is miserable enough, without adding more misery.
Last edited by Dontaskme on Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
phyllo
Posts: 1465
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:58 pm
Location: Слава Україні!

Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

Statistically, 99% of abortions are requested as a product of consensual sexual relations. Less than 1% are as a result of rape, incest, etc.

In other words, it's used as last-ditch, "contraception" by those who behaved badly or failed to take responsiblity for themselves.

And if you will stipulate that the 99% are evil, then I'll happily talk with you about the 1%.
And why would I stipulate that 99% are evil? Because they had sex?
"Think" changes nothing. Either an in-utero child is a child, or it is not. What one elects to "think" will make no factual difference at all.
You're fixated on the word "think". Substitute "believe" or "know" if you prefer.
But if you want to, you can explain the difference to me between a child out of the womb by .0001 seconds, and one about to be out of the womb by the same amount of time. Why is one a case of murder, and the other not?
The first breath is the beginning of life.

Is that wrong for some reason?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

phyllo wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:25 pm
Statistically, 99% of abortions are requested as a product of consensual sexual relations. Less than 1% are as a result of rape, incest, etc.

In other words, it's used as last-ditch, "contraception" by those who behaved badly or failed to take responsiblity for themselves.

And if you will stipulate that the 99% are evil, then I'll happily talk with you about the 1%.
And why would I stipulate that 99% are evil? Because they had sex?
Because they create children and then murder them. That would be evil.

But if you don't want to say that the 99% are evil, then your mention of the 1% was not sincere. You were only "interested in their welfare" in order to excuse the 99%. So you weren't really concerned about them at all. You just used them. They were never your real concern.
"Think" changes nothing. Either an in-utero child is a child, or it is not. What one elects to "think" will make no factual difference at all.
You're fixated on the word "think". Substitute "believe" or "know" if you prefer. [/quote]
We can't. Because the aborters do not "know" what a child is. They just "think" they can murder her.
But if you want to, you can explain the difference to me between a child out of the womb by .0001 seconds, and one about to be out of the womb by the same amount of time. Why is one a case of murder, and the other not?
The first breath is the beginning of life.

Is that wrong for some reason?
Sure. The baby respirates long before birth. She has her own brainwaves, fingerprints, circulatory system, pulse, volition, and so on, as well. So I assume you must mean, "The first breath while she is not inside the mother"?

Justify that. What magic makes the influx of oxygen, the taking of the first independent breath, the benchmark of humanness? And how are we to know that you are right, since we have to make a law for everybody here?
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 16940
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slHLHbWfXwk

Pope Says Ditch The Fur Babies And Have Some Kids

Religions care ONLY about THEIR interests, NOT YOURS. And they will continue to manipulate people for as long as they can get away with it.

The push to have children comes from many angles of society, in this case religion. Much respect to those who think for themselves, it’s not easy.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8477
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Roe vs Wade...
Who wins from the repeal of Roe V Wade?
1. Self satisfied Christians, who want to impose unwanted babies on reluctant mothers.
2. People who make money from back street abortions.
3. People who make money in trafficking children across state lines.
4. Rapists who get their genetic code through to the next generation to breed a new generation of rapists.
5. Prisons who will get a boost of new delinquents in about 18 years time..
So America can pat itself on the back for a job well done.
User avatar
Sculptor
Posts: 8477
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:15 pm Statistically, 99% of abortions are requested as a product of consensual sexual relations. Less than 1% are as a result of rape, incest, etc.
Please cite

100% of all abortion are the result of a woman or girl not feeling able to bring up child, or have issues around pregnancy
User avatar
iambiguous
Posts: 7106
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:10 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:53 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:51 am Let's say you have a female whom you know and love. She has a daughter she created by choice. But one day, she takes her two-year-old daughter, sticks a pair of scissors in the back of her neck, sucks her brain out with a vaccum, then calmly tears her arms and legs off, then maybe flushes them away, or even allows them to be sold on the organ market.

Her crime is discovered. What penalty do you prescribe?

When you answer, you'll have answered your own question.
Iamb who does not believe in an afterlife would likely be influenced by that in his decision.
But you would not?

So are both infanticide and abortion okay by you, or are both immoral, in your view?

It seems that in either case, you regard them as the same, right?
Just for the record, given my own subjective assumption that we live in a No God world, I believe that each of us as individuals acquire our views about abortion and murder [on this side of the womb] existentially.

For personal reasons rooted largely in the life that we live, a life subsumed historically and culturally and experientially out in particular worlds understood in particular ways, we come to choose one set of behaviors rather than another.

What one person deems to be immoral in any particular context another person is able to rationalize as the right thing to do. And the reasons here are embedded in the extraordinary complexities embodied in all of the countless possible genetic and memetic variables and permutations.

Lives can be so far removed from other lives that who is really able to take that into account in order provide us with the optimal set of behaviors. Or, for some, even the only behaviors that, deontologically, all rational and virtuous men and women are said to be obligated to choose.

Abortion is just a particular stark behavior because it revolves literally around life and death

Now, in order to make this uncertainly, this ambiguity and this precariousness go away, there are any number of moral fonts around to anchor one's Self in: God and religion, ideology, deontology, Nature.

Some are indoctrinated as children to embrace them, others live lives that predispose them to them.

Either way what's important is that you are able to think yourself into believing that your own font is the One True Path. For some just on this side of the grave, for others on both sides.

Objectivists I call them.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 22140
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Abortion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:53 pm 100% of all abortion are the result of a woman or girl not feeling able to bring up child, or have issues around pregnancy
:lol: "Have issues"? "Have issues"?

Classic. So you can kill people if you "have issues around" them? Aren't you a lovely person.
Post Reply