Abortion

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:26 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:20 pm Abortion is not murder any more than eating cabbage it
Well, you're going to find out.

I've told you, anyway.
:lol: :lol:
Now you have completely lost the plot.

Don't forget to do your prayers five times a day pointing to Meccah, else you might "find out"
He’s completely gone to live with the fairies…

He has no idea what he’s talking about…he talks about crimes against God and he talks about Gods judgement…..as if he’s personally met God in person…he’d have to be a real-time witness of the evidence of what he is talking about, he would have to see it with his own eyes, the things he claims to know for certain…it’s so hilarious how he doesn’t even see the error of his own irrational thinking that he believes is real.

And notice how he always avoids the really hard intelligent questions…lol

What would a God intervention look like upon an immoral lawless none-punishment human society where killing their own species was as normal as killing animals for human consumption? ….notice IC will ignore questions like that.

He simply doesn’t know what a GOD judgement upon a human would look like.He just likes saying it because he thinks it makes him look super intelligent. It’s quite sad really.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:26 pm

I asked, "Which of those are you suggesting makes it okay to murder your children? "
What if all humans agreed it was ok to murder your children, let’s start with the fetuses.

If we all agreed it was ok to abort the fetuses….tell us, what would God’s judgement for the human crimes committed against him actually look like IC. It’s no good just saying you’ll find out, that’s just stupid, we want to see the physical evidence of god’s judgment in real time please…

Just answer the question….? Your silence will speak volumes …what does god’s judgement look like? So that we can all know that what you say is the truth?
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Sculptor
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:26 pm
Well, you're going to find out.

I've told you, anyway.
:lol: :lol:
Now you have completely lost the plot.

Don't forget to do your prayers five times a day pointing to Meccah, else you might "find out"
He’s completely gone to live with the fairies…

He has no idea what he’s talking about…he talks about crimes against God and he talks about Gods judgement…..as if he’s personally met God in person…he’d have to be a real-time witness of the evidence of what he is talking about, he would have to see it with his own eyes, the things he claims to know for certain…it’s so hilarious how he doesn’t even see the error of his own irrational thinking that he believes is real.

And notice how he always avoids the really hard intelligent questions…lol

What would a God intervention look like upon an immoral lawless none-punishment human society where killing their own species was as normal as killing animals for human consumption? ….notice IC will ignore questions like that.

He simply doesn’t know what a GOD judgement upon a human would look like.He just likes saying it because he thinks it makes him look super intelligent. It’s quite sad really.
Once you have taken the step to accept the unacceptable; to defend the indefensible, then you have to surround yourself idiotic ideas to back up the errors. So that no matter how clever you are, or how clever you think you are you just continue to make an arse of yourself and dig yourself deeper into the rabbit hole.
And IC is way down that hole.
He has nothing worth while to say.
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phyllo
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

What if all humans agreed it was ok to murder your children, let’s start with the fetuses.

If we all agreed it was ok to abort the fetuses….tell us, what would God’s judgement for the human crimes committed against him actually look like IC. It’s no good just saying you’ll find out, that’s just stupid, we want to see the physical evidence of god’s judgment in real time please…
It would look like evolutionary morality.

Those who abort their fetuses or kill their children will not reproduce as successfully as those who don't do those things.

Therefore they will eventually die out and they will be replaced by people who don't abort and don't kill their children.

That could happen in the future. Western society may be committing slow suicide by accepting abortion.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

phyllo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:22 pm
What if all humans agreed it was ok to murder your children, let’s start with the fetuses.

If we all agreed it was ok to abort the fetuses….tell us, what would God’s judgement for the human crimes committed against him actually look like IC. It’s no good just saying you’ll find out, that’s just stupid, we want to see the physical evidence of god’s judgment in real time please…
It would look like evolutionary morality.

Those who abort their fetuses or kill their children will not reproduce as successfully as those who don't do those things.

Therefore they will eventually die out and they will be replaced by people who don't abort and don't kill their children.

That could happen in the future. Western society may be committing slow suicide by accepting abortion.
Obviously this is physically accurate…but I’m asking IC what would God’s intervention by way of judgement LOOK LIKE upon the crimes committed against him by these human immoral actions that were given to them by Gods gift of free will?
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Re: Abortion

Post by Dontaskme »

Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:07 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:20 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:31 pm

:lol: :lol:
Now you have completely lost the plot.

Don't forget to do your prayers five times a day pointing to Meccah, else you might "find out"
He’s completely gone to live with the fairies…

He has no idea what he’s talking about…he talks about crimes against God and he talks about Gods judgement…..as if he’s personally met God in person…he’d have to be a real-time witness of the evidence of what he is talking about, he would have to see it with his own eyes, the things he claims to know for certain…it’s so hilarious how he doesn’t even see the error of his own irrational thinking that he believes is real.

And notice how he always avoids the really hard intelligent questions…lol

What would a God intervention look like upon an immoral lawless none-punishment human society where killing their own species was as normal as killing animals for human consumption? ….notice IC will ignore questions like that.

He simply doesn’t know what a GOD judgement upon a human would look like.He just likes saying it because he thinks it makes him look super intelligent. It’s quite sad really.
Once you have taken the step to accept the unacceptable; to defend the indefensible, then you have to surround yourself idiotic ideas to back up the errors. So that no matter how clever you are, or how clever you think you are you just continue to make an arse of yourself and dig yourself deeper into the rabbit hole.
And IC is way down that hole.
He has nothing worth while to say.
Christianity is an embarrassment to normal rational thinking intelligent human beings…..it’s straight out of the dystopia The Handmans Tale.

And they have the audacity to think it’s acceptable to bring more children into this insufferable insane madness. Talk about confusion and hypocrisy. It does not compute with him that intelligent people have stopped procreating.
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:39 pm
phyllo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:22 pm
What if all humans agreed it was ok to murder your children, let’s start with the fetuses.

If we all agreed it was ok to abort the fetuses….tell us, what would God’s judgement for the human crimes committed against him actually look like IC. It’s no good just saying you’ll find out, that’s just stupid, we want to see the physical evidence of god’s judgment in real time please…
It would look like evolutionary morality.

Those who abort their fetuses or kill their children will not reproduce as successfully as those who don't do those things.

Therefore they will eventually die out and they will be replaced by people who don't abort and don't kill their children.

That could happen in the future. Western society may be committing slow suicide by accepting abortion.
Obviously this is physically accurate…but I’m asking IC what would God’s intervention by way of judgement LOOK LIKE upon the crimes committed against him by these human immoral actions that were given to them by Gods gift of free will?
There's the God who punishes you for your sins after you die.

And there's the God who "punishes you" continuously because you're not in synch with the structure of the universe that He/She/It created.

IC appears to be in the former camp. And that's what Christianity seems to say.

But I don't think Christianity as binary as that. It's not black and white. There's a benefit/punishment in the here and now.
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Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

The politics of "states rights":

Bret Stephens at the NYT

'In the gun decision, the court is denying New York State the normal democratic right to decide for itself how it should go about ensuring domestic tranquility, which is the basic function of government. In the Mississippi abortion case, the court is doing something closer to the opposite: giving a state government the unfettered ability to erase an individual right that, until last Friday, had been upheld by the court for nearly five decades.'

If the state passes laws the Supremes agree with, empower the states all the more. If the state passes laws the Supremes disagree with make those laws unconstitutional.

Then pretend that it's all about the Constitution and not about your own moral and political prejudices. Or in regard to this case -- "Supreme Court Sides With Coach Over Prayers on 50-Yard Line" -- your own religious prejudices.
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

It's much more than that.

You can't answer, "Well, I donated the sperm, but she's not my kid." People will obviously want to know if you have any legitimate custody of a child you also confess is not legitimately yours. If you don't, then you're interfering with a child who belongs to somebody else.

And you certainly cannot answer, "No, not my child; just one I'm 'taking responsiblity' for."

That answer will land you in jail. You can't just decide to meddle with a child that's not really yours.
I would get into even more trouble if I said that she is my property because owning people is illegal in this country. (So is owning certain exotic animals.)
God owns everything and everyone. But He designates to humans, by way of stewardship, the right ot own things as well...but under His authority, not by way of some imagined authority of their own.

Did you ever read John Locke? He covers all this quite nicely.
Not really interested in these gymnastics.
t's not an either-or, it's a both-and. Your child belongs proximally to you, in that you are the legitimate custodian of her. But that right you get from God, who is the ultimate rightful owner of both you and her.

And what you do to her, you answer to God for. That's as true in the womb as out of it, as well.
So if God said that I could abuse the child, then it would be okay to do so?

That's were it seems to go when ownership is brought into it. It gives you control over another person.
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:10 pm The politics of "states rights":

Bret Stephens at the NYT

'In the gun decision, the court is denying New York State the normal democratic right to decide for itself how it should go about ensuring domestic tranquility, which is the basic function of government. In the Mississippi abortion case, the court is doing something closer to the opposite: giving a state government the unfettered ability to erase an individual right that, until last Friday, had been upheld by the court for nearly five decades.'

If the state passes laws the Supremes agree with, empower the states all the more. If the state passes laws the Supremes disagree with make those laws unconstitutional.

Then pretend that it's all about the Constitution and not about your own moral and political prejudices. Or in regard to this case -- "Supreme Court Sides With Coach Over Prayers on 50-Yard Line" -- your own religious prejudices.
Well, gun ownership is enshrined in the constitution and abortion is not.

That's not inconstant even if you don't like it.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:46 pm
Sculptor wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:07 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:20 pm

He’s completely gone to live with the fairies…

He has no idea what he’s talking about…he talks about crimes against God and he talks about Gods judgement…..as if he’s personally met God in person…he’d have to be a real-time witness of the evidence of what he is talking about, he would have to see it with his own eyes, the things he claims to know for certain…it’s so hilarious how he doesn’t even see the error of his own irrational thinking that he believes is real.

And notice how he always avoids the really hard intelligent questions…lol

What would a God intervention look like upon an immoral lawless none-punishment human society where killing their own species was as normal as killing animals for human consumption? ….notice IC will ignore questions like that.

He simply doesn’t know what a GOD judgement upon a human would look like.He just likes saying it because he thinks it makes him look super intelligent. It’s quite sad really.
Once you have taken the step to accept the unacceptable; to defend the indefensible, then you have to surround yourself idiotic ideas to back up the errors. So that no matter how clever you are, or how clever you think you are you just continue to make an arse of yourself and dig yourself deeper into the rabbit hole.
And IC is way down that hole.
He has nothing worth while to say.
Christianity is an embarrassment to normal rational thinking intelligent human beings…..it’s straight out of the dystopia The Handmans Tale.

And they have the audacity to think it’s acceptable to bring more children into this insufferable insane madness. Talk about confusion and hypocrisy. It does not compute with him that intelligent people have stopped procreating.
Just how far can IC crawl up Trump's arse?
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Re: Abortion

Post by Sculptor »

phyllo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:21 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:10 pm The politics of "states rights":

Bret Stephens at the NYT

'In the gun decision, the court is denying New York State the normal democratic right to decide for itself how it should go about ensuring domestic tranquility, which is the basic function of government. In the Mississippi abortion case, the court is doing something closer to the opposite: giving a state government the unfettered ability to erase an individual right that, until last Friday, had been upheld by the court for nearly five decades.'

If the state passes laws the Supremes agree with, empower the states all the more. If the state passes laws the Supremes disagree with make those laws unconstitutional.

Then pretend that it's all about the Constitution and not about your own moral and political prejudices. Or in regard to this case -- "Supreme Court Sides With Coach Over Prayers on 50-Yard Line" -- your own religious prejudices.
Well, gun ownership is enshrined in the constitution and abortion is not.

That's not inconstant even if you don't like it.
The constitution says nothing about abortion. In 1776 it was too common to rate a mention.
It is doubtful if it really validates gun ownership either, since it was referring the the mustering of militia at a time when guns took 30 second to load.
Hardly a green light for 18 year old to be able to carry concealed weapons hand guns or open carry Kalashnikovs.
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Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:41 pm As for you, all I'm noting is that given my own subjective reaction to your posts here [and that's all it is, my own personal opinion rooted existentially in dasein] your points strike me as so clearly inadequate for a philosophy forum, that a 'condition" is one possible explanation.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:57 pmNobody, including you, apparently, has any idea what you think you mean by that.
Again, you merely assert things like this as though that in and of itself constitutes the evidence needed to make it true. Whereas I go to great lengths in the OPs here...

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

...in attempting to explain what I think it means. Not only in intellectual contraptions but given the actual existential trajectory of my own life.
After all, you're the objectivist here. You're the one who connects the ontological and teleological dots between abortion, the Christian God and Judgment Day. You're the one who insists that in regard to abortion our very souls are at stake.

Right?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:57 pm No. Abortion, like any other sin, can be forgiven. But one has to see it for what it is, be ashamed, and ask for that forgiveness. Otherwise, like any other sin, abortion occasions judgment.
Right. And how is being forgiven or not forgiven by God not in turn necessarily embedded in how you connect the ontological and teleological dots between abortion, the Christian God and Judgment Day?

You don't even think through your own dogmas here.
iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:26 am
Note to others:

Be honest. How can someone who equates demonstrating the existence of the Christian God in Heaven as he does above with demonstrating the existence of the Pope in the Vatican not be afflicted with one or another mental "condition"?

How is his "standard" of evidence here not ridiculous?

The only way most of us might argue that there is not sufficient evidence that the Pope, really, really, really does reside in the Vatican is to suggest something akin to solipsism or sim worlds or dream worlds or something out of the Matrix.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:57 pm It was your demand and your test. Not mine.
Let's see how others weigh in here.
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Well, it's not "mine," in the sense that I didn't invent it; it's only "mine" in the sense that among all these, I chose it.

I invariably find that people who speak of "hundreds of religious paths" and such have investigated either very few or none of them. So it seems odd that they want to assert this as a problem. I don't think it's nearly the problem you imagine it to be.
Come on, IC, like they can't argue exactly the same thing about you and your God. And let's not forget what is at stake here for mere mortals on both sides of the grave. You'd think the real deal Christian God would make it absolutely clear that His path is the One True Path. And not make it necessary for the flock to take "leaps of faith" to Him or to make "wagers" when confronting the possibility of oblivion.
As for it being a problem, if you believe that God provides us with objective morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side, and you note that down through the ages there have been countless religious denominations all claiming to provide us with the One True Path to them...

That isn't a problem for us mere mortals?

Only unlike most of them it's not a Kierkegaardian leap of faith to God, it's "evidence" that in fact He does exist. The kind of evidence that no reasonable man or woman can possibly deny.

This kind of "evidence":

https://youtu.be/hHXXacBAm2A
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... SjDNeMaRoX

Indeed, after watching these videos, I challenge anyone here to still doubt that the Christian God resides in Heaven.

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:57 pm Go and find out. That's the only way to do it. See if what any of them claim holds up.
Please. I gave you the opportunity on other threads to note the most powerful evidence in the videos that the Christian God resides in Heaven... and over and again [like now] you merely punt that task to me and to others. Mr. Snippet, meet Mr. Wiggle.

Then this sort of "argument" again...
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:57 pm No, you don't believe that...not if you know anything about what those "religions" or "paths" actually say.

You can only believe that by not knowing any of them at all, really.

In stead of doubting, just do it. Then you won't need anybody to tell you.
So, I'll repeat myself:
Please. How is this not the sort of "argument" one would expect to encounter in church or around the dinner table at home or on a Christian website or in a social media venue.

But at the Philosophy Now magazine forum?!!
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods and religious/spiritual faiths
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Well, that is a problem: "dasein," for you, has no meaning. You say you're not using Heidegger's version, or anybody else's -- it's your own, you say. So nobody but you knowns what you mean by "dasein." When I asked, you, yourself were unable to tell me what your definition of it is. :shock: Absent that, nobody can even know what it is you're asking...
All I can do is to note the points I raise about dasein in the OPs here:

https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=176529
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382
https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 5&t=185296

To note how, in regard to our moral and political and spiritual value judgments, I believe we go about acquiring a sense of identity. And to ask others to note how and why this is not applicable to them.

In regard to such controversial issues as abortion.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm No, no... no running away. Just give your definition.

Do it right here.
That is actually what you construe to be me "running away" from the issue!!!

Now I'm supposed to believe it is not a "condition" that propels your own "definitional logic" here?

How about if we exchange post after post regarding how to define "define"? Anything to keep your Christian God up in the spiritual clouds.
The heavens that from time to time send asteroids and comets our way bringing about "extinction events". And the Earth which was hard-wired by God to bring about that "endless procession" above.

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm Are you "extinct"? I hadn't noticed. :wink:

No, you're not. so you have no such complaint against God.
A wink? I'm still around so I have no right to complain about the millions upon millions of men, women and children who suffered horrific fates as a result of that procession from the Christian God above?

That explanation actual works for you...and you don't have a "condition"? Come on, it's either that or you are a complete fool.

Well, if "I" do say so myself.

Then back to the Bible. That book that must be true because it is the word of the Christian God. And, in turn, precisely because it is the word of the Christian God that proves that He exists. That sort of definitional/deductive logic?
And who was it other than God that created human biology with its countless terrible medical afflictions that make life a living hell [eventually] for all of us.[
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:58 pm The Bible says our biology was made good, and had no such characteristics. But mankind's choice to reject the Source of Life and Health Himself led to the inevitable fall, not just of mankind but of the creation of which he/she has been given stewardship.
Prompting me to note...
Ah, a necessary adjunct of Original Sin. All the rest of us still being punished for something we didn't even do ourselves. Use that to explain away these terrible conditions:

https://www.onhealth.com/content/1/chil ... _sick_kids
https://sph.umich.edu/pursuit/2020posts ... llosa.html
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/chi ... conditions

Got it.
Last edited by iambiguous on Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abortion

Post by iambiguous »

phyllo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:21 pm
iambiguous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:10 pm The politics of "states rights":

Bret Stephens at the NYT

'In the gun decision, the court is denying New York State the normal democratic right to decide for itself how it should go about ensuring domestic tranquility, which is the basic function of government. In the Mississippi abortion case, the court is doing something closer to the opposite: giving a state government the unfettered ability to erase an individual right that, until last Friday, had been upheld by the court for nearly five decades.'

If the state passes laws the Supremes agree with, empower the states all the more. If the state passes laws the Supremes disagree with make those laws unconstitutional.

Then pretend that it's all about the Constitution and not about your own moral and political prejudices. Or in regard to this case -- "Supreme Court Sides With Coach Over Prayers on 50-Yard Line" -- your own religious prejudices.
Well, gun ownership is enshrined in the constitution and abortion is not.

That's not inconstant even if you don't like it.
On the contrary, arguments are made that abortion is a constitutional issue: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/26/opin ... rtion.html

'Ending the forced sexual and reproductive servitude of Black girls and women was a critical part of the passage of the 13th and 14th Amendments. The overturning of Roe v. Wade reveals the Supreme Court’s neglectful reading of the amendments that abolished slavery and guaranteed all people equal protection under the law. It means the erasure of Black women from the Constitution.

'Mandated, forced or compulsory pregnancy contravenes enumerated rights in the Constitution, namely the 13th Amendment’s prohibition against involuntary servitude and protection of bodily autonomy, as well as the 14th Amendment’s defense of privacy and freedom.

'This Supreme Court demonstrates a selective and opportunistic interpretation of the Constitution and legal history, which ignores the intent of the 13th and 14th Amendments, especially as related to Black women’s bodily autonomy, liberty and privacy which extended beyond freeing them from labor in cotton fields to shielding them from rape and forced reproduction. The horrors inflicted on Black women during slavery, especially sexual violations and forced pregnancies, have been all but wiped from cultural and legal memory. Ultimately, this failure disserves all women.'


I mean, come on, if the Constitution is all about granting all citizens equal protection under the law, how can it not take into account the fact that only women can become pregnant?

And, please, don't try to argue that if women are forced to give birth, they can ever really be equal to men socially, politically and economically.

Or, sure, think yourself into believing that actually is possible.
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Re: Abortion

Post by phyllo »

'Ending the forced sexual and reproductive servitude of Black girls and women was a critical part of the passage of the 13th and 14th Amendments. The overturning of Roe v. Wade reveals the Supreme Court’s neglectful reading of the amendments that abolished slavery and guaranteed all people equal protection under the law. It means the erasure of Black women from the Constitution.

'Mandated, forced or compulsory pregnancy contravenes enumerated rights in the Constitution, namely the 13th Amendment’s prohibition against involuntary servitude and protection of bodily autonomy, as well as the 14th Amendment’s defense of privacy and freedom.

'This Supreme Court demonstrates a selective and opportunistic interpretation of the Constitution and legal history, which ignores the intent of the 13th and 14th Amendments, especially as related to Black women’s bodily autonomy, liberty and privacy which extended beyond freeing them from labor in cotton fields to shielding them from rape and forced reproduction. The horrors inflicted on Black women during slavery, especially sexual violations and forced pregnancies, have been all but wiped from cultural and legal memory. Ultimately, this failure disserves all women.'
I can see how the SC would consider that to be bullshit.
I mean, come on, if the Constitution is all about granting all citizens equal protection under the law, how can it not take into account the fact that only women can become pregnant?
Equal protection means access to abortion?

That's ridiculous.
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