Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:44 pm OK. So maybe NGOs that are non-profit are the answer?
I'm quite keen on some NGOs, Gary. I could tell you really good things about some.

But I have to admit that even NGOs have to be watched, and have to be held accountable by the public. Some have behaved rather unethically.

The problem is deeper: it's human nature itself that is not ultimately to be trusted. There are people who mean well; but that is so rare that it cannot be presumed. Most people are self-motivated, not driven by altruism.

The best we can do is to have stringent checks and balances in place, so that any abuses of power are quickly remediable. In that effort, things like market discipline are some help, because they impose quick consequences on misbehaviour. But there's no perfect solution, only provisional ones.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Immanuel Can »

henry quirk wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:49 pm The morality in business isn't in them carin' but in them bein' honest.
Good distinction.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by henry quirk »

NGOs

How about good, old-fashioned, charities?

Compassion, while not infinite, isn't rare. Most folks, when they can afford it, want to help.

What most folks object to is bein' forced to help.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:49 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:44 pm OK. So maybe NGOs that are non-profit are the answer?
I'm quite keen on some NGOs, Gary. I could tell you really good things about some.

But I have to admit that even NGOs have to be watched, and have to be held accountable by the public. Some have behaved rather unethically.

The problem is deeper: it's human nature itself that is not ultimately to be trusted. There are people who mean well; but that is so rare that it cannot be presumed. Most people are self-motivated, not driven by altruism.

The best we can do is to have stringent checks and balances in place, so that any abuses of power are quickly remediable. In that effort, things like market discipline are some help, because they impose quick consequences on misbehaviour. But there's no perfect solution, only provisional ones.
How can we have checks and balances without elected officials and laws?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:57 pm How can we have checks and balances without elected officials and laws?
Well you were talking about NGOs.

An NGO must make its books public. They can be inspected by anyone, anytime. And NGOs that are funded by private charity have the discipline of accountability to their donors. If they don't, then their donations go away, fast. There are some checks and balances.

The danger with NGOs, however, is government funding. Because the government has far less incentive than private persons to care where and how the money is spent. Their interest is in optics and in self-promotion.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:05 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:57 pm How can we have checks and balances without elected officials and laws?
Well you were talking about NGOs.

An NGO must make its books public. They can be inspected by anyone, anytime. And NGOs that are funded by private charity have the discipline of accountability to their donors. If they don't, then their donations go away, fast. There are some checks and balances.

The danger with NGOs, however, is government funding. Because the government has far less incentive than private persons to care where and how the money is spent. Their interest is in optics and in self-promotion.
Corporations donate to NGOs too at times. There have been problems with that too.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by henry quirk »

Why are checks and balances strictly the purview of the law?

I wanna donate to a charity: bein' smarter than the average bear, I research the charity before a dime leaves my hand; if the charity appears shady, they don't get my money; if the charity isn't open to its patrons in a verifiable way about how donations are spent, they don't get my money.

The checks and balance is on the patrons.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:13 pm Corporations donate to NGOs too at times. There have been problems with that too.
The corporations are actually pretty good. They tend to be subject to market and stockholder pressures already. Best of all, they cost the public purse nothing.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:54 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:13 pm Corporations donate to NGOs too at times. There have been problems with that too.
The corporations are actually pretty good. They tend to be subject to market and stockholder pressures already. Best of all, they cost the public purse nothing.
Have you ever worked for a corporation, IC?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

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Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:05 pm Have you ever worked for a corporation, IC?
I've worked for private companies, and I've worked for the government. So I've seen both sides.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:20 am
Gary Childress wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:05 pm Have you ever worked for a corporation, IC?
I've worked for private companies, and I've worked for the government. So I've seen both sides.
Were the private companies big corporations or small businesses.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Not ethical in my view.

In my view, health care should be treated as a human right and there should be no cost to particular individuals period.

Ideally I'd have a completely different sort of economy overall. But even without that, the idea that someone might need medical care, medication, etc. but can't get it because they can't afford it is outrageous and highly unethical in my opinion.

Same thing in my view re housing, food, etc. and education as far as one might like to pursue it.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by henry quirk »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:10 pm Not ethical in my view.

In my view, health care should be treated as a human right and *there should be no cost to particular individuals period.

Ideally I'd have a completely different sort of economy overall. But even without that, the idea that someone might need medical care, medication, etc. but can't get it because they can't afford it is outrageous and highly unethical in my opinion.

Same thing in my view re housing, food, etc. and education as far as one might like to pursue it.
*So, who absorbs the cost of all this health care, housing, food, and education?
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by Terrapin Station »

henry quirk wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:13 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:10 pm Not ethical in my view.

In my view, health care should be treated as a human right and *there should be no cost to particular individuals period.

Ideally I'd have a completely different sort of economy overall. But even without that, the idea that someone might need medical care, medication, etc. but can't get it because they can't afford it is outrageous and highly unethical in my opinion.

Same thing in my view re housing, food, etc. and education as far as one might like to pursue it.
*So, who absorbs the cost of all this health care, housing, food, and education?
Ideally, there is no cost. We don't have to organize society around money in any traditional sense. We can do tasks simply because they can get done, and a competitive incentive for doing the needed tasks would be that it's the way to acquire more scarce resources (such as homes in particular locations, fancier homes, etc.). We can do that without organizing so that anything is based on money.
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Re: Is Big Pharma Ethical in Effectively Dictating Health-Affordability to a Nation's Populace (via its government)?

Post by henry quirk »

Terrapin Station wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:11 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 2:13 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 12:10 pm Not ethical in my view.

In my view, health care should be treated as a human right and *there should be no cost to particular individuals period.

Ideally I'd have a completely different sort of economy overall. But even without that, the idea that someone might need medical care, medication, etc. but can't get it because they can't afford it is outrageous and highly unethical in my opinion.

Same thing in my view re housing, food, etc. and education as far as one might like to pursue it.
*So, who absorbs the cost of all this health care, housing, food, and education?
Ideally, there is no cost. We don't have to organize society around money in any traditional sense. We can do tasks simply because they can get done, and a competitive incentive for doing the needed tasks would be that it's the way to acquire more scarce resources (such as homes in particular locations, fancier homes, etc.). We can do that without organizing so that anything is based on money.
Well, I didn't mention money.

I asked about cost.

The doctor has costs: his equipment, the medicines he issues, his time and energy.

You say the doc will doctor cuz he can, and his compensation for doctorin' will be access to resources.

In capitalism/free enterprise: the doc works and gets a mutually agreed symbol of value (cash, not money) or actual money (gold, for example)...with this value symbol or money he gets to, based on his wants and needs, transact. No central planners or overseers are needed.

In your system (may I call it socialism?) someone else controls the menu of products or services the doc can access if he meets his quota. This implies oversight and central control.

This is an improvement how?
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