the ethics of growth

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Advocate
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the ethics of growth

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Making a living is honorable but making a profit is theft. Part of life is improving one's lot but to take from others more than one can directly use is theft.
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henry quirk
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Re: the ethics of growth

Post by henry quirk »

Advocate wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:16 am Making a living is honorable but making a profit is theft. Part of life is improving one's lot but to take from others more than one can directly use is theft.
You know what? In a capitalism, a free market, if the guy you're doin' business with is makin', as you see it, filthy profit, then don't do business with him.

Go find yourself a vendor, a merchant, a provider who only, in your view, makes a living, respectable-like.

Might have to climb down offa your high horse, though.
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Re: the ethics of growth

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[quote="henry quirk" post_id=507052 time=1618190683 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=507042 time=1618186612 user_id=15238]
Making a living is honorable but making a profit is theft. Part of life is improving one's lot but to take from others more than one can directly use is theft.
[/quote]

You know what? In a capitalism, a free market, if the guy you're doin' business with is makin', as you see it, filthy [i]profit[/i], then [b]don't do business with him[/b].

Go find yourself a vendor, a merchant, a provider who only, in your view, [i]makes a living[/i], respectable-like.

Might have to climb down offa your high horse, though.
[/quote]

Just go on pretending that "just leave" is almost ever a viable option because fair competition is always available.
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henry quirk
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Re: the ethics of growth

Post by henry quirk »

Advocate wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:35 am
henry quirk wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:24 am
Advocate wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:16 am Making a living is honorable but making a profit is theft. Part of life is improving one's lot but to take from others more than one can directly use is theft.
You know what? In a capitalism, a free market, if the guy you're doin' business with is makin', as you see it, filthy profit, then don't do business with him.

Go find yourself a vendor, a merchant, a provider who only, in your view, makes a living, respectable-like.

Might have to climb down offa your high horse, though.
Just go on pretending that "just leave" is almost ever a viable option because fair competition is always available.
Didn't say just leave. Pretty much said shop around.
Skip
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Re: the ethics of growth

Post by Skip »

Yeah! Find a non-profit corporation that produces the same thing or provides the same service... before the first corporation buys it up and puts it out of business. The free market is soooo freeee, you should be able to find an ethical purveyor of everything you need, surviving in direct competition with all the unethical ones.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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henry quirk
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Re: the ethics of growth

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Skip wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:08 am Yeah! Find a non-profit corporation that produces the same thing or provides the same service... before the first corporation buys it up and puts it out of business. The free market is soooo freeee, you should be able to find an ethical purveyor of everything you need, surviving in direct competition with all the unethical ones.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So, like Advocate, you believe profit is wrong, unethical.

All profit is wrong, all the time: yeah?

How can a corp buy when an owner chooses not to sell?

The free market (free enterprise) is free (as in self-directed): too bad we don't currently have one. What we have is a managed market (state capitalism)...even so, there is is free enterprise goin' in the cracks, sumthin' that ought to be encouraged.
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Re: the ethics of growth

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[quote="henry quirk" post_id=507145 time=1618307452 user_id=472]
So, like Advocate, you believe profit is wrong, unethical.

All profit is wrong, all the time: yeah?

How can a corp buy when an owner chooses not to sell?

The free market (free enterprise) [i]is[/i] free (as in self-directed): too bad we don't currently have one. What we have is a managed market (state capitalism)...even so, there [i]is[/i] is free enterprise goin' in the cracks, sumthin' that ought to be encouraged.
[/quote]

The problem with profit isn't that it's getting paid for risk per-se, it's that the people with the power in the transaction can and do continuously bring down the level of risk and push up the level of reward in all kinds of unearned ways, not least of which is regulatory capture, and exacerbating those problems keeps going until revolution is inevitable. If the markets were meaningfully free, perhaps profit wouldn't be inherently evil, but they aren't, and it is.

As long as there's an inherent imbalance in transactions, including information accessibility with regard to the terms of the transaction, the market is not meaningfully free and everything above naturally follows. Government must balance economic translations for the good of those who cannot do so for themselves or increasingly UNEARNED inequality is inevitable. A free market without oversight cannot be fair, just, reasonable, or ethical.
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henry quirk
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Re: the ethics of growth

Post by henry quirk »

Advocate wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:45 pm
henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:50 am So, like Advocate, you believe profit is wrong, unethical.

All profit is wrong, all the time: yeah?

How can a corp buy when an owner chooses not to sell?

The free market (free enterprise) is free (as in self-directed): too bad we don't currently have one. What we have is a managed market (state capitalism)...even so, there is is free enterprise goin' in the cracks, sumthin' that ought to be encouraged.
The problem with profit isn't that it's getting paid for risk per-se, it's that the people with the power in the transaction can and do continuously bring down the level of risk and push up the level of reward in all kinds of unearned ways, not least of which is regulatory capture, and exacerbating those problems keeps going until revolution is inevitable. If the markets were meaningfully free, perhaps profit wouldn't be inherently evil, but they aren't, and it is.

As long as there's an inherent imbalance in transactions, including information accessibility with regard to the terms of the transaction, the market is not meaningfully free and everything above naturally follows. *Government must balance economic translations for the good of those who cannot do so for themselves or increasingly UNEARNED inequality is inevitable. **A free market without oversight cannot be fair, just, reasonable, or ethical.
*is the problem, not the solution...that's state capitalism: markets, transactions, skewed thru bought and paid for legislation...if the rich man can't buy favoritism from the gov then he truly rises or falls on his own merit, so: reduce the gov, don't revise or refurbish it...make it weak.

**a free market with oversight is a managed market which is exactly what we have now...think about it: what you want is what we have (gov powerful enough to restrict and legislators who will be bribed).
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Re: the ethics of growth

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[quote="henry quirk" post_id=507160 time=1618319118 user_id=472]
Government *is the problem, not the solution...that's state capitalism: markets, transactions, skewed thru bought and paid for legislation...if the rich man can't buy favoritism from the gov then he truly rises or falls on his own merit, so: reduce the gov, don't revise or refurbish it...make it weak.

**a free market with oversight is a managed market which is exactly what we have now...think about it: what you want is what we have (gov powerful enough to restrict and legislators who will be bribed).
[/quote]

*Government is the problem to the extent it's doing the opposite of what it should do. It's enabling capture, not freedom.

**A market with no management will never be anything but the exact opposite of free. Freedom is only meaningful to the extent it's accessible, and that means making market dynamics fair at a minimum, or getting rid of market dynamics entire when possible.

When one side of a transaction almost always has an advantage, free marketry is alchemy.
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henry quirk
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Re: the ethics of growth

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When one side of a transaction almost always has an advantage, free marketry is alchemy.

The only advantage is bein' favored by gov...take gov out of the mix, there's no advantage (the rich can't become the uber-wealthy becuz they aren't protected more than anyone else; the poor become less poor simply becuz the rich can't, by way of gov, skew the market to obstruct the little guy).

Right now, it's easy for the corp to expand (it gets tax breaks, industry-favoring regs, etc) and hard for the non-rich to even get started (an endless and expensive exercise in licensing, fees, taxes, etc.).

Again: make gov weak and incapable of favoritism and you'll get the balance you want.
Last edited by henry quirk on Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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henry quirk
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Re: the ethics of growth

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Government is the problem to the extent it's doing the opposite of what it should do. It's enabling capture, not freedom.

By definition, gov can never enable freedom. It can only restrict freedom.
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Re: the ethics of growth

Post by henry quirk »

A market with no management will never be anything but the exact opposite of free. Freedom is only meaningful to the extent it's accessible, and that means making market dynamics fair at a minimum, or getting rid of market dynamics entire when possible.

Punish fraud and theft and otherwise leave sellers and buyers alone: you'll have honest competition, prices will assume their proper dynamic places, enforced monopoly will be impossible, no one will be too big to fail or too small to squash, and the market will be what it should be (free).
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