the ethics of suicide prevention

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Skepdick
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:04 pm Unless, of course, he had the the opposite effect.
Better understanding of the very people you are trying to help can detract you from your mission? How does that work?
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:04 pm And you know this - how?
The very people you are supposed to be helping are telling you this! Your customers are giving you feedback! Your customers are telling you how you failed them. And you are basically telling them you know better.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:04 pm Somebody with a psychiatric history has reams of paper written about them.
You think you can learn about people from reading papers? That's why you are incompetent at your job!
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:04 pm Why?
Because you learning is an interactive thing. You can't learn about psychology from papers! You need the practice to ground the theory.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:04 pm I see. Well, thanks for that thoughtful, profound analysis. I hope Advocate takes your institution to great heights of success.
You seem overly-obsessed with Advocate and not the least bit concerned that you are openly admitting to ignoring feedback from the very people you are failing.
Skip
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

You seem overly-obsessed with Advocate
I don't give a flying fig about Advocate. He seemed to think this thread was all about him. I don't know why you think it's about me.
Skepdick
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:41 pm I don't give a flying fig about Advocate.
Which is precisely the wrong attitude by somebody in your position.

You should fucking care, seeming as Advocate is one of the very people you are supposed to be helping.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:41 pm He seemed to think this thread was all about him.
For one - he started the thread.
For two - the thread is about taking feedback from the very people who felt the suicide "help line" failed to help.

It sure feels like you are missing an important piece of the puzzle, sport.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:41 pm I don't know why you think it's about me.
Because (and these are your words) you are answerable for the results. Both good and bad.

You are currently failing at recognising that you are dismissing feedback from the very people you are failing to help.

If that's not sheer incompetence, what is?
Advocate
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

Have y'all ever tried to have an existential conference with a suicide help line? If they can't handle that...
Skip
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:03 pm
You seem overly-obsessed with Advocate and not the least bit concerned that you are openly admitting to ignoring feedback from the very people you are failing.
[I don't give a flying fig about Advocate. aka the opposite of obsessed]
Which is precisely the wrong attitude by somebody in your position.
What made you think I have a "position"? What made you think there was any 'feedback' from any people I was supposed to help?
For one - he started the thread.
Which is why I thought it was about him, not me.
For two - the thread is about taking feedback from the very people who felt the suicide "help line" failed to help.
Really? Where did you get that?
I read this:
I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes.
and gathered that it was about Advocate offering to tell the help-lines how to do their job, and them not wanting his advice. Not a word about any response from people who were failed.
It sure feels like you are missing an important piece of the puzzle, sport.
Missing the whole "puzzle' aamof.
Last edited by Skip on Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Skip
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Advocate wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:44 pm Have y'all ever tried to have an existential conference with a suicide help line? If they can't handle that...
No. How does it work?
I mean, how would it work, if they could handle it?
And if they can't handle it .... what?
Skepdick
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:12 pm What made you think I have a "position"? What made you think there was any 'feedback' from any people I was supposed to help?
Your comments.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:12 pm Which is why I thought it was about him, not me.
Are those the only two options your incompetent brain could come up with?

Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:12 pm Really? Where did you get that?
From Advocate's comments.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:12 pm I read this:
Yeah, we both of us read the exact same thing. Somehow you got a lot less information out of it than I did.
Advocate
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skip post_id=501671 time=1615504062 user_id=6255]
[quote=Advocate post_id=501655 time=1615499048 user_id=15238]
Have y'all ever tried to have an existential conference with a suicide help line? If they can't handle that...
[/quote]
No. How does it work?
I mean, how would it work, if they [i]could[/i] handle it?
And if they can't handle it .... what?
[/quote]

...they're insufficient to the stated purpose of their existence. I'm not judging then by my standards but pointing out that they're not fulfilling their own effectively.
Skip
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:02 am Yeah, we both of us read the exact same thing. Somehow you got a lot less information out of it than I did.
Evidently. Maybe you can fill in these blanks, as well:
[an existential conference] How does it work?
How would it work, if they could handle it?
[ if they can't even handle....] Then what happens?
Advocate responded without answering.
Advocate
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skip post_id=501805 time=1615559264 user_id=6255]
[quote=Skepdick post_id=501697 time=1615532553 user_id=17350]
Yeah, we both of us read the exact same thing. Somehow you got a lot less information out of it than I did.
[/quote]
Evidently. Maybe you can fill in these blanks, as well:
[an existential conference] How does it work?
How would it work, if they [i]could[/i] handle it?
[ if they can't even handle....] Then what happens?
Advocate responded without answering.
[/quote]

I used conference to ensure we were talking about an in-depth exploration of existential problems, but the larger point is that in my experience they can barely address an existential question, much less help with an existential problem in any manner relevant to an individual.

I don't care to discuss how it Ought to work, only that such a way is not currently present or sufficient. I show an answer (framework of understanding) which is valuable in its own right. Individual solutions (custom action plan) would have to be worked out in light of particular contingencies (budget, etc.) to be relevant.

It is indisputable that they are insufficient, and i dare say that means almost if not all of them, even the ones i have not personally experienced. How to cover that insufficiency is an open question yet.
Skepdick
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Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:27 pm Advocate responded without answering.
He did answer. You just chose to misunderstand.

Or perhaps you didn't choose.

Maybe you are as incompetent at understanding as you are at the job.
Skip
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Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:36 pm He did answer. You just chose to misunderstand.
No, no; as you pointed out earlier, I'm too stupid to understand.
Which is why I asked you to interpret.
So you don't know what he means, either?
Advocate
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skip post_id=501847 time=1615561562 user_id=6255]
[quote=Skepdick post_id=501812 time=1615559814 user_id=17350]
He did answer. You just chose to misunderstand. [/quote]
No, no; as you pointed out earlier, I'm too stupid to understand.
Which is why I asked you to interpret.
So you don't know what he means, either?
[/quote]

It's nothing to do with me. Either you understand English or you don't.
Skip
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

It's nothing to do with me. Either you understand English or you don't.
Not. But that's all right: Skepdick understands, so you still have someone to talk to.
FlashDangerpants
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Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:52 pm no suicide help line wants my help because ...
They don't want your help because in a moment of great crisis, nobody should be on the phone with a man who spends five minutes congratulating them for contacting the greatest philosopher ever and then fucks off to buy himself a hat with the word genius written on it in sequins.
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