the ethics of suicide prevention

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Advocate
Posts: 2560
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes. I've called these various help lines to try to Find an existential conversation and they seem to have no one on staff capable of having one. They believe temporarily talking someone down by just listening and offering boilerplate answers is a solution.

This is neither sufficient nor civilized.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 4764
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by bahman »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:52 pm I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes. I've called these various help lines to try to Find an existential conversation and they seem to have no one on staff capable of having one. They believe temporarily talking someone down by just listening and offering boilerplate answers is a solution.

This is neither sufficient nor civilized.
You either commit suicide or live. Both are your right.

Edited to:

You either commit suicide or live and then die naturally. Both are your right.
DPMartin
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:11 am

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by DPMartin »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:52 pm I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes. I've called these various help lines to try to Find an existential conversation and they seem to have no one on staff capable of having one. They believe temporarily talking someone down by just listening and offering boilerplate answers is a solution.

This is neither sufficient nor civilized.
no, its narcissistic in your case to think that what someone else has established is supposed to do it your way, or even accommodate your way. its their program and they did the work to set it in place, so they get to have the say.

now if you were to set up your own suicided help line then you can do it your way.
Advocate
Posts: 2560
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

[quote=DPMartin post_id=501242 time=1615392680 user_id=13848]
[quote=Advocate post_id=500587 time=1614952350 user_id=15238]
I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes. I've called these various help lines to try to Find an existential conversation and they seem to have no one on staff capable of having one. They believe temporarily talking someone down by just listening and offering boilerplate answers is a solution.

This is neither sufficient nor civilized.
[/quote]

no, its narcissistic in your case to think that what someone else has established is supposed to do it your way, or even accommodate your way. its their program and they did the work to set it in place, so they get to have the say.

now if you were to set up your own suicided help line then you can do it your way.
[/quote]

Even if i'm completely narcissistic, that doesn't affect the validity of anything i said.
Skip
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:33 pm Even if i'm completely narcissistic, that doesn't affect the validity of anything i said.
As your personal opinion, it's perfectly valid. As a challenge to the methodology of help organizations, it's pretty feeble. In fact, from just that little exposition, I would consider you far too self-involved to deal with emotionally fragile strangers, and wouldn't let you anywhere near my phone-lines.
Advocate
Posts: 2560
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Skip post_id=501403 time=1615422883 user_id=6255]
[quote=Advocate post_id=501250 time=1615394022 user_id=15238]
Even if i'm completely narcissistic, that doesn't affect the validity of anything i said.
[/quote]
As your personal opinion, it's perfectly valid. As a challenge to the methodology of help organizations, it's pretty feeble. In fact, from just that little exposition, I would consider you far too self-involved to deal with emotionally fragile strangers, and wouldn't let you anywhere near my phone-lines.
[/quote]

Experienced and knowledgeable equates to self-involved... got it.
DPMartin
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:11 am

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by DPMartin »

Advocate wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:33 pm
DPMartin wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:11 pm
Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:52 pm I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes. I've called these various help lines to try to Find an existential conversation and they seem to have no one on staff capable of having one. They believe temporarily talking someone down by just listening and offering boilerplate answers is a solution.

This is neither sufficient nor civilized.
no, its narcissistic in your case to think that what someone else has established is supposed to do it your way, or even accommodate your way. its their program and they did the work to set it in place, so they get to have the say.

now if you were to set up your own suicided help line then you can do it your way.
Even if i'm completely narcissistic, that doesn't affect the validity of anything i said.
again, said and did is two different matters. to what good is what you say if its just words that fall to the ground? therefore if its to no good, then what's valid about it?
Skip
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Advocate wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:21 am Experienced and knowledgeable equates to self-involved... got it.
That's just the the problem: you don't get it.
Set up your own practice and run it any way you want. If you're working for someone else, you're working to their rules. My assessment of your competency and character is irrelevant -- unless you're working for me - which could never happen.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 3774
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:18 pm
Location: NYC Man

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Terrapin Station »

Advocate wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:52 pm I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes. I've called these various help lines to try to Find an existential conversation and they seem to have no one on staff capable of having one. They believe temporarily talking someone down by just listening and offering boilerplate answers is a solution.

This is neither sufficient nor civilized.
Why have you tried to kill yourself?
Advocate
Posts: 2560
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Advocate »

[quote="Terrapin Station" post_id=501575 time=1615486101 user_id=12582]
[quote=Advocate post_id=500587 time=1614952350 user_id=15238]
I'm an existential philosopher with a solid grounding in psychology who has tried to kill myself twice and yet no suicide help line wants my help because i'm not integrated enough to believe doing things their way is the right way. I have helped people through existential crises before and yet somehow i'm insufficient for their purposes. I've called these various help lines to try to Find an existential conversation and they seem to have no one on staff capable of having one. They believe temporarily talking someone down by just listening and offering boilerplate answers is a solution.

This is neither sufficient nor civilized.
[/quote]

Why have you tried to kill yourself?
[/quote]

You must have missed the memo. Society sucks.
Skepdick
Posts: 8002
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:13 pm You must have missed the memo. Society sucks.
So choose nihilism.

There's a philosophy for every temperament.
Skepdick
Posts: 8002
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:40 pm That's just the the problem: you don't get it.
Set up your own practice and run it any way you want. If you're working for someone else, you're working to their rules. My assessment of your competency and character is irrelevant -- unless you're working for me - which could never happen.
It seems to me that you are the one who doesn't get it.

An institution/organisation has a vision and a mission. Towards achieving that vision/mission rules are tools, not overlords. If your rules are getting in your way - then you change the rules!

How do you propose preventing people from committing suicide if you don't even understand the psychology behind suicide?

Your ignorance is akin that of the FBI circa 1960 when they were neither aware that they didn't, nor interested enough to understand the psychology of serial killers. Serial killers are just evil, you see? That's all you need to know to stop/prevent serial killers. Stop evil!

Uhh. OK, boss! How? Everything we've been doing for 50 years ain't working!

The psychology of suicide survivors is a gold mine of knowledge towards any prevention efforts! But you don't get that. Because... your rules.
Skip
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:27 pm It seems to me that you are the one who doesn't get it.

An institution/organisation has a vision and a mission. Towards achieving that vision/mission rules are tools, not overlords. If your rules are getting in your way - then you change the rules!
Their rules are not getting in their way. Their rules are getting in the way of one outsider who wants in. The institution is under no obligation to change those rules to accommodate someone they don't want. Converesly, why would they want someone who wants to change their rules, even before he's in the door?
How do you propose preventing people from committing suicide if you don't even understand the psychology behind suicide?
What makes you think the people who currently administer suicide help-lines don't understand the psychology behind suicides? What are their own backgrounds and experiences? How did they ever manage to run those organization without this new outsiders' invaluable input?
The psychology of suicide survivors is a gold mine of knowledge towards any prevention efforts!
Study them, study their histories, interview them if they're willing to share their experience. Don't put a narcissist in charge, just because he says your rules are wrong and he knows better.
But you don't get that.
I see it, but I don't unquestioningly accept it - if that's what you mean by "get"[/quote]
Because... your rules.
If I'm in charge of an organization, I'm answerable for its results, both good and bad. My department, my responsibility - my rules. His department, his responsibility - his rules. It's not complicated.
Last edited by Skip on Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
Posts: 8002
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:50 pm Their rules are not getting in their way. Their rules are getting in the way of one outsider who wants in. The institution is under no obligation to change those rules to accommodate someone they don't want.
The institution has a mission. If the person you are rejecting (based on your rules) would've helped to get you closer to your mission, the rules are a mistake/hindrance!
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:50 pm What makes you think the people who currently administer suicide help-lines don't understand the psychology behind suicides?
Because of experiences such as the one Advocate had. They are robotic, not human in their engagement. They follow protocol because they are rule-followers. not rule-inventors.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:50 pm Study them, if they're willing to share their experience. Don't put a narcissist in charge, just because he says your rules are wrong.
"study them"? What? Like cage animals? :lol: :lol: :lol: Nobody says you have to put them in charge. But you do at least have to let them into the building. You know. So you can actually interact with them.
Skip wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:50 pm If I'm in charge of an organization, I'm answerable for its results, both good and bad. My department, my responsibility - my my rules. His department, his responsibility - his rules. It's not complicated.
That's why you are stupid. You are a rule-following monkey.

You are a rule-enforcer not a problem solver.
Skip
Posts: 2733
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: the ethics of suicide prevention

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:56 pm The institution has a mission. If the person you are rejecting (based on your rules) would've helped to get you closer to your mission, the rules are a mistake/hindrance!
Unless, of course, he had the the opposite effect.
Because of experiences such as the one Advocate had. They are robotic, not human in their engagement. They follow protocol because they are rule-followers. not rule-inventors.
And you know this - how?
"study them"? What? Like cage animals?
Somebody with a psychiatric history has reams of paper written about them. Plus, if he's willing to share his experience, he's perfectly capable of talking about it without a cage.
But least have to let them into the building. You know. So you can actually interact with them.
Why?
That's why you are stupid. You are a rule-following monkey.

You are a rule-enforcer not a problem solver.
I see. Well, thanks for that thoughtful, profound analysis. I hope Advocate takes your institution to great heights of success.
Post Reply