the profit motive in medicine

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Advocate
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the profit motive in medicine

Post by Advocate »

Making money off other people's misery is abhorrent. The only thing an ethical doctor can be doing is trying to lose their job by making themselves irrelevant. Focusing on either profit or status, esteem or credentials is a direct opportunity cost to your oath to save lives or whatever.

As a society we need to focus our energy almost exclusively on prevention and stop rewarding/perpetuating people who exhaustively create prettier and more expensive Band-Aids.
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

Good idea. How?
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:07 am Making money off other people's misery is abhorrent. The only thing an ethical doctor can be doing is trying to lose their job by making themselves irrelevant. Focusing on either profit or status, esteem or credentials is a direct opportunity cost to your oath to save lives or whatever.

As a society we need to focus our energy almost exclusively on prevention and stop rewarding/perpetuating people who exhaustively create prettier and more expensive Band-Aids.
Deprecating expensive humans with cheap automatons sure is profitable...
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

In essence, MEDICARE sets the prices that doctors charge for their services. Something ought be done to lower those price-points. Voting for small government and/or for lower taxes runs the risk that doctors will raise their prices to compensate for their losses.

The lion’s share of the profits goes to the healthcare insurance companies, who have strong lobbies and who would certainly raise prices if they could. How to de-incentivize insurance companies from making huge profits is a tough nut to crack.

The real solution to price gouging in the medical marketplace may depend on how much legislation can be tolerated.
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

Making money off other people's misery is abhorrent.

Perhaps doctors and other healthcare professionals see things differently. They make money from using their skills to relieve other people’s misery.


As a society we need to focus our energy almost exclusively on prevention

Prevention is critically important, but when a pedestrian is involved in a motor vehicle accident, society needs to have the latest advances in medical research on trauma surgery.


and stop rewarding/perpetuating people who exhaustively create prettier and more expensive Band-Aids.

An MRI is prettier and much more expensive than a CT, but its real value is in the medical images it creates with so much more detail than a CT can produce.
Advocate
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Advocate »

[quote=commonsense post_id=497526 time=1613762407 user_id=14610]
[size=125][b]Making money off other people's misery is abhorrent.[/b][/size]

Perhaps doctors and other healthcare professionals see things differently. They make money from using their skills to relieve other people’s misery.


[size=125][b]As a society we need to focus our energy almost exclusively on prevention [/b][/size]

Prevention is critically important, but when a pedestrian is involved in a motor vehicle accident, society needs to have the latest advances in medical research on trauma surgery.


[size=125][b]and stop rewarding/perpetuating people who exhaustively create prettier and more expensive Band-Aids.[/b][/size]

An MRI is prettier and much more expensive than a CT, but its real value is in the medical images it creates with so much more detail than a CT can produce.
[/quote]

How much of modern medicine would become completely unnecessary if we concentrated on prevention? And i don't just mean against disease, but against pissng people off so they don't shoot you too.
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:11 pm How much of modern medicine would become completely unnecessary if we concentrated on prevention? And i don't just mean against disease, but against pissng people off so they don't shoot you too.
When was the last time you looked at the Top 10/20 causes of death.

Care to suggest preventive measures for cancer, heart attacks, stroke, pulmonary diseases and Alzheimers ?

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-shee ... s-of-death
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:11 pm How much of modern medicine would become completely unnecessary if we concentrated on prevention?
About 50%. Remember that many of the prevention measures,like birth control, prenatal care, vaccination, early detection and behaviour therapy are also under the auspices of medicine. Training enough midwives, visiting nurse-practitioners, paramedics, physiotherapists, emotional support staff, workplace and school medical officers would make prevention of serious illness and containment of epidemic much more practicable. If all of those measures were implemented over all of the population, probably 70-80% of disease/emergency intervention.
Another very large part of prevention is a blanket improvement in environmental conditions, worker safety, child protection, nutrition, education and social security. Raising the overall standard of living for the entire population would require a drastic reduction of economic disparity.
Of course, there is no reason physicians need to be a scarce specialty-item in any society. Plenty of motivated and clever young people would learn medicine if they were given the opportunity.
And i don't just mean against disease, but against pissng people off so they don't shoot you too.
Societal violence is a whole other matter.
Advocate
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Advocate »

>Care to suggest preventive measures for cancer, heart attacks, stroke, pulmonary diseases and Alzheimers ?

A healthy environment, a culture of exercise and meaningful activity with beautiful ways to walk to work, not having a "real" job, making healthy food more easily available than unhealthy food, using the genetic and other medical technologies we already have more effectively.

Sure there's a place for medical advances, but we'll never know what is really needed so long as the system keeps perpetuating itself the way it is, replete with bureaucracy and capitalism.
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:35 pm A healthy environment, a culture of exercise and meaningful activity with beautiful ways to walk to work, not having a "real" job, making healthy food more easily available than unhealthy food, using the genetic and other medical technologies we already have more effectively.
So basically - do more of what we are already doing?

Great insight!

Let me paraphrase: what do you think we should change; or introduce into the current system? Be precise/specific.
Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:35 pm Sure there's a place for medical advances, but we'll never know what is really needed so long as the system keeps perpetuating itself the way it is, replete with bureaucracy and capitalism.
The system is not perpetuating itself. There is observable improvement over time in a bunch outcomes. The environment is healthier - you can tell because we are living longer (we are dying less).

What is it that you object to? Is the ship not moving fast enough? Is the ship going in the wrong direction? Is the ship captained by the wrong captain?
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:48 pm [Advocate - - A healthy environment, a culture of exercise and meaningful activity with beautiful ways to walk to work, not having a "real" job, making healthy food more easily available than unhealthy food, using the genetic and other medical technologies we already have more effectively.]
So basically - do more of what we are already doing?
Which "we" are already doing any of that? Where? How effectively?
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:11 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:20 pm Making money off other people's misery is abhorrent.

Perhaps doctors and other healthcare professionals see things differently. They make money from using their skills to relieve other people’s misery.


As a society we need to focus our energy almost exclusively on prevention

Prevention is critically important, but when a pedestrian is involved in a motor vehicle accident, society needs to have the latest advances in medical research on trauma surgery.


and stop rewarding/perpetuating people who exhaustively create prettier and more expensive Band-Aids.

An MRI is prettier and much more expensive than a CT, but its real value is in the medical images it creates with so much more detail than a CT can produce.
How much of modern medicine would become completely unnecessary if we concentrated on prevention? And i don't just mean against disease, but against pissng people off so they don't shoot you too.
In America, judging from public responses to mitigation and vaccination, internal medicine and mental health might be reduced by 50% at most.
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:21 pm Which "we" are already doing any of that? Where? How effectively?
We - society. Some parts do some stuff better, other parts do other stuff better. On average they all progress in most aspects.

What's your yardstick for "effectiveness" ?

How effective do you want it?
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:20 pm
Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:11 pm How much of modern medicine would become completely unnecessary if we concentrated on prevention? And i don't just mean against disease, but against pissng people off so they don't shoot you too.
When was the last time you looked at the Top 10/20 causes of death.

Care to suggest preventive measures for cancer, heart attacks, stroke, pulmonary diseases and Alzheimers ?

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-shee ... s-of-death
There are preventive measures for all of the conditions mentioned, and while they may have some effect on the incidence of diseases, the measures are not effective enough to move any off the top 10 list.
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

Skip wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:29 pm
Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:11 pm How much of modern medicine would become completely unnecessary if we concentrated on prevention?
About 50%. Remember that many of the prevention measures,like birth control, prenatal care, vaccination, early detection and behaviour therapy are also under the auspices of medicine. Training enough midwives, visiting nurse-practitioners, paramedics, physiotherapists, emotional support staff, workplace and school medical officers would make prevention of serious illness and containment of epidemic much more practicable. If all of those measures were implemented over all of the population, probably 70-80% of disease/emergency intervention.
Another very large part of prevention is a blanket improvement in environmental conditions, worker safety, child protection, nutrition, education and social security. Raising the overall standard of living for the entire population would require a drastic reduction of economic disparity.
Of course, there is no reason physicians need to be a scarce specialty-item in any society. Plenty of motivated and clever young people would learn medicine if they were given the opportunity.
And i don't just mean against disease, but against pissng people off so they don't shoot you too.
Societal violence is a whole other matter.
Well put, Skip.
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