the profit motive in medicine

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simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by simplicity »

Advocate wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:05 pm I've heard 1/3 of GoFundMe's are for health care costs. Socialized medicine is the only way to have a sustainable society, and if that's not enough, it's the right thing to do.
Socialized medicine is a bad idea [albeit possibly better than a corporate-controlled system] for all kinds of reasons, including non-sustainability. Using real money, there is only so much wealth that can be allocated to fixing people [as well as attempting to extend life]. As the populations in Western countries continues to age, this will become more and more apparent.

Ideally, we should have a prevention-only system combined with alternative methods of treatment if they are affordable. People need to be encouraged to take care of themselves. It's like the homeless, a great lesson for people who think that they might just want to sit around instead of being productive.

Socialization is the short road to Hell. Even if the idea appeals to you, it is never sustainable [as well as being grossly inefficient].
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

simplicity wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:56 pm
commonsense wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:59 pm Please clarify for me how spending other people’s money until it runs out relates to the shortcomings of a prevention-only model. I don’t see the connection that you’re proposing.
I don't see any shortcomings in a prevention-only model.
Then you should re-read my previous post.

There are many more examples of dire situations where curative medicine is needed.

Would you deny surgery for a newborn’s heart defect?

What treatment would you allow if any for a live victim of a mass shooting?

When a pedestrian is hit by a bus, shattering his femur, would you tell the orthopaedist not to bother?

I don’t deny that how to pay for health care is a major problem, however I assert that curative medicine is necessary.
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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:31 pm
simplicity wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:56 pm
commonsense wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:59 pm Please clarify for me how spending other people’s money until it runs out relates to the shortcomings of a prevention-only model. I don’t see the connection that you’re proposing.
I don't see any shortcomings in a prevention-only model.
Then you should re-read my previous post.

There are many more examples of dire situations where curative medicine is needed.

Would you deny surgery for a newborn’s heart defect?

What treatment would you allow if any for a live victim of a mass shooting?

When a pedestrian is hit by a bus, shattering his femur, would you tell the orthopaedist not to bother?

I don’t deny that how to pay for health care is a major problem, however I assert that curative medicine is necessary.
Encouraging self-reliance along with charity would go a long way to solvin' that problem.
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:56 pm
commonsense wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:31 pm
simplicity wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:56 pm
I don't see any shortcomings in a prevention-only model.
Then you should re-read my previous post.

There are many more examples of dire situations where curative medicine is needed.

Would you deny surgery for a newborn’s heart defect?

What treatment would you allow if any for a live victim of a mass shooting?

When a pedestrian is hit by a bus, shattering his femur, would you tell the orthopaedist not to bother?

I don’t deny that how to pay for health care is a major problem, however I assert that curative medicine is necessary.
Encouraging self-reliance along with charity would go a long way to solvin' that problem.
Agree. 🙂
simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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commonsense wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:31 pm
simplicity wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:56 pm
commonsense wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:59 pm Please clarify for me how spending other people’s money until it runs out relates to the shortcomings of a prevention-only model. I don’t see the connection that you’re proposing.
I don't see any shortcomings in a prevention-only model.
Then you should re-read my previous post.

There are many more examples of dire situations where curative medicine is needed.

Would you deny surgery for a newborn’s heart defect?

What treatment would you allow if any for a live victim of a mass shooting?

When a pedestrian is hit by a bus, shattering his femur, would you tell the orthopaedist not to bother?

I don’t deny that how to pay for health care is a major problem, however I assert that curative medicine is necessary.
The idea that health care is a right is absurd. If health care is a right, then why not housing, and transportation, and clothing, and every damn thing. You cannot take care of everybody. People need to do for themselves. Otherwise, you end up with a master/slave situation where those who can do for themselves control the rest.
simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:56 pm Encouraging self-reliance along with charity would go a long way to solvin' that problem.
It is the only sustainable path.

You cannot make an entire society pay for people's poor health habits. If you want to eat garbage and never exercise, fine, but then you must pay the price.
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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by henry quirk »

simplicity wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:54 am
henry quirk wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:56 pm Encouraging self-reliance along with charity would go a long way to solvin' that problem.
It is the only sustainable path.

You cannot make an entire society pay for people's poor health habits. If you want to eat garbage and never exercise, fine, but then you must pay the price.
Sustainable or not, takin' care of one's self and voluntarily helpin' others is the only moral path.

Anything else puts makes one into a resource for others, which is immoral.
simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:35 am Sustainable or not, takin' care of one's self and voluntarily helpin' others is the only moral path.

Anything else puts makes one into a resource for others, which is immoral.
Once upon a time, this used to be quite obvious the the vast majority.

When, how, and why did people become so incredibly dependent?
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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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simplicity wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:04 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:35 am Sustainable or not, takin' care of one's self and voluntarily helpin' others is the only moral path.

Anything else puts makes one into a resource for others, which is immoral.
*Once upon a time, this used to be quite obvious the the vast majority.

**When, how, and why did people become so incredibly dependent?

*Such recognitions are still local and -- unfortunately -- transitory. Bastiat said it best, I think...

Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.



**When we got hoodwinked into thinkin' a finer clay, as Bastiat called 'em, had a better handle on ours lives than we do, and that these legislators could fill our bellies, ease our troubles, kiss our boo-boos, etc.

The socialist, the technocrat, the benevolent slaver, they know best, so they say, and we believe 'em...no matter how often they slide it up our keisters, no matter how many times they lie, no matter how much they fail, we keep right believin' 'em...the teat they offer, and sometimes force upon us, is dry and shriveled, but we suck on it anyway.

And: by we I mean the majority of any place or time.

Man has come a long way down a bloody road from slaver-kings to sumthin' approachin' a wide spread recognition of individual freedom and sovereignty (and an appreciation of the liberty that extends out of that recognition), but Man has a long way to go still, cuz we don't value individual freedom and sovereignty enough to override that fatal tendency Bastiat wrote about.
Advocate
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Advocate »

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=514219 time=1623862954 user_id=472]
[quote=simplicity post_id=514210 time=1623859477 user_id=21803]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=514170 time=1623807335 user_id=472]
Sustainable or not, takin' care of one's self and [u]voluntarily[/u] helpin' others is the only [i]moral[/i] path.

Anything else puts makes one into a resource for others, which is [i]immoral[/i].
[/quote]
[b]*Once upon a time, this used to be quite obvious the the vast majority.[/b]

[b]**When, how, and why did people become so incredibly dependent?[/b]
[/quote]


*Such recognitions are still local and -- unfortunately -- transitory. Bastiat said it best, I think...

[i]Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.[/i]


**When we got hoodwinked into thinkin' a [i]finer clay[/i], as Bastiat called 'em, had a better handle on ours lives than we do, and that these [i]legislators[/i] could fill our bellies, ease our troubles, kiss our boo-boos, etc.

The socialist, the technocrat, the benevolent slaver, they know best, so they say, and we believe 'em...no matter how often they slide it up our keisters, no matter how many times they lie, no matter how much they fail, we keep right believin' 'em...the teat they offer, and sometimes force upon us, is dry and shriveled, but we suck on it anyway.

And: by [i]we[/i] I mean [i]the majority[/i] of any place or time.

Man has come a long way down a bloody road from slaver-kings to sumthin' approachin' a wide spread recognition of individual freedom and sovereignty (and an appreciation of the liberty that extends out of that recognition), but Man has a long way to go still, cuz we don't value individual freedom and sovereignty enough to override that [i]fatal tendency[/i] Bastiat wrote about.
[/quote]

TLDR: People tend to be good in good circumstances and vice versa,
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

simplicity wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:04 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:35 am Sustainable or not, takin' care of one's self and voluntarily helpin' others is the only moral path.

Anything else puts makes one into a resource for others, which is immoral.
Once upon a time, this used to be quite obviously the the vast majority.

When, how, and why did people become so incredibly dependent?
Just out of curiosity what public things are you dependent on and is there any chance you could go off-grid?
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

Bastiat really hit the nail on the head when he indicated that humans will seek to fulfill their desires along the path of least resistance with the least amount of pain.
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

So, it seems that the profit motive is a major driver of healthcare such that those who provide healthcare services are happy to be paid either voluntarily or by force. Any agreement there?
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

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Last edited by commonsense on Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:10 pm
simplicity wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:04 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:35 am Sustainable or not, takin' care of one's self and voluntarily helpin' others is the only moral path.

Anything else puts makes one into a resource for others, which is immoral.
Once upon a time, this used to be quite obviously the the vast majority.

When, how, and why did people become so incredibly dependent?
Just out of curiosity what public things are you dependent on and is there any chance you could go off-grid?
The better question(s): simplicity, how much unnecessary crap are you bein' made to pay for, and how much is government over-chargin' you?
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