the profit motive in medicine

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commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:06 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:03 pm What are the problems we ought to be solving? Please school me.
There's a very long list of problems that are important.

To point you at the "most important" ones just because it's important is to neglect any knowledge about your strengths and weaknesses.

I am not a believer in stoicism/grit and "bite down and do it" - if a problem is too hard it will demotivate you. You have some level of expertise and some affinity to some area that you are passionate about, you know what your support structure is like (experts, mentors, people you can work with and learn with).

You should know what the important problems are and you should know what the chain-reaction of solving them will look like when it ripples through society.
And solving those problems may lead to an improvement in overall healthcare effectiveness?
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

commonsense wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:12 pm And solving those problems may lead to an improvement in overall healthcare effectiveness?
Many problems in my field (computation) are directly related to practical medical application.

One example (of hundreds) Cheaper, more accessible computation and better sequencing of the human genome allows for patient profiling and drug personalisation. That directly translates to more accurate/precise models/understanding of drug-patient interaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personali ... Challenges

But as if you needed my example... mRNA technology has enabled the development of effective COVID-19 vaccines in months! And I am sure you've read the stories of the kind of derision and humiliation Katalin Karikó underwent, until she switched to the private sector. Imagine she quit when everybody told her to.

There's certainly an element to self-promotion when selling ideas, but that goes hand-in-hand with actually having produced something useful!
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:15 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:12 pm And solving those problems may lead to an improvement in overall healthcare effectiveness?
Many problems in my field (computation) are directly related to practical medical application.

One example (of hundreds) Cheaper, more accessible computation and better sequencing of the human genome allows for patient profiling and drug personalisation. That directly translates to more accurate/precise models/understanding of drug-patient interaction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personali ... Challenges

But as if you needed my example... mRNA technology has enabled the development of effective COVID-19 vaccines in months! And I am sure you've read the stories of the kind of derision and humiliation Katalin Karikó underwent, until she switched to the private sector. Imagine she quit when everybody told her to.

There's certainly an element to self-promotion when selling ideas, but that goes hand-in-hand with actually having produced something useful!
Ah! One of the factors used in determining a country’s ranking in healthcare is longevity. An improvement in drug-patient interaction could result in better medical outcomes, which can result in an increase in longevity and a higher standing in healthcare efficiency.

Poverty, nutrition, car accidents, living conditions etc impact the effectiveness of a healthcare system. Solving problems, whether by policy or by profit, can improve healthcare’s efficiency.

Now I want to say thank you to you and duh to me.
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:46 pm Somewhere in between your cynicism you completely missed the point about moving needles.

You've confused slacktivism with activism.
Not being concerned with either, I don't see that as a problem to be solved.

And if you got off your ass and actually attempted to tackle the problems you are so passionate about, the scale of the problem and the impotence of your influence will humble you.
Oooh! Somebody thinks I'm both cynical and passionate. How touching!
Here I thought I was simply responding to the OP question in a concise, reasonably well-informed manner. Yes, I did miss the whole point about why moving needles require tackling.

So, anyway, you were expounding --

Which investments are yielding terrible returns? And what's "terrible" in this context?
And how is that related to health care?
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:59 pm Oooh! Somebody thinks I'm both cynical and passionate. How touching!
Here I thought I was simply responding to the OP question in a concise, reasonably well-informed manner. Yes, I did miss the whole point about why moving needles require tackling.
Ohhh. So you had an opinion? Everybody has one of those. Opinions are like assholes.

Saying that France is "the best" helps absolutely nothing unless you can tell Ghana how to become like France, on the budget that Ghana has, with the shortage of doctors and medical professionals that Ghana has; with the lack of universities to train the medical professionals that Ghana needs. and the lack of incentives to convince foreigners to come over and work for you while navigating the corruption and uncertainties of your usual African state. There's a bunch of variables you aren't seeing and that prevents you from understanding which part of the machine needs lubricating and what the first step in the right direction even is. Just about any plan of action you come up with is certainly wrong and will be revised when it makes contact with the ground. About the only thing you are certain of is that you have some north-star (a mere idea) to guide you on your way - how you get there's a bit of a magic trick and a lot of improvisation.

It's just armchair sophistry to go and say "Hey Ghana! Do like France!"
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:59 pm Which investments are yielding terrible returns? And what's "terrible" in this context?
And how is that related to health care?
It all depends on depends. Investments from which PoV? Whose capital? Whose objectives? Who loses if things go wrong?

The decision-making and chain of events looks very different on the ground than it does from the philosopher's arm chair.
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:12 pm Saying that France is "the best" helps absolutely nothing unless you can tell Ghana how to become like France, on the budget that Ghana has, with the shortage of doctors and medical professionals that Ghana has; with the lack of universities to train the medical professionals that Ghana needs. and the lack of incentives to convince foreigners to come over and work for you while navigating the corruption and uncertainties of your usual African state. There's a bunch of variables you aren't seeing and that prevents you from understanding which part of the machine needs lubricating and what the first step in the right direction even is.
1. I didn't say that; I linked to the WHO rankings.
2. Ghana is quite capable of looking at the model France or Italy or Japan uses and adopting policies and/or approaches from that system to their own situation. I don't need to tell them anything.
3. Addressing the problem of medical training was fairly high on my list of methods to improve health-care everywhere.
4. Establishing more universities in Africa are not ruled out by the fact that Europe currently has better health-care; meanwhile, western universities might offer scholarships programs for promising students from Africa, so that cost is not an insurmountable obstacle to the children of working people.
5. I don't want to convince any more foreigners to go and interfere in African affairs. (But that's because I think of Ghana, Sudan, Zambia, Chad and Angola as separate, distinct, autonomous societies that maybe are not getting all the same benefits as some other parts of this great big all-encompassing Society-R-We.)
6. The existence of variables doesn't mean everything is already going just fine.
It's just armchair sophistry to go and say "Hey Ghana! Do like France!"
Point taken. Hey, Ghana! Go do like Honduras! Hey USA! Go do like France!
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:59 pm [investments] It all depends on depends. Investments from which PoV? Whose capital? Whose objectives? Who loses if things go wrong?
Well if you don't know what you're asking about, why did you ask?
What do you suppose is responsible for the terrible ROI (Return on Investment)?
Your job from the sidelines is to simply scream loud when things are going against your best interests.
I haven't tried that yet. Sounds like hard work. Also like something a lot more citizens should be doing.
Last edited by Skip on Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:34 pm 2. Ghana is quite capable of looking at the model France or Italy or Japan uses and adopting policies and/or approaches from that system to their own situation. I don't need to tell them anything.
Ahhh. Policies. So you think "conscious and decisive action" happens top-down, not bottom-up. The reason Ghana isn't like France, Italy or Japan is because nobody is looking to copy France, Italy or Japan.

Those lazy politicians!
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:34 pm 3. Addressing the problem of medical training was fairly high on my list of methods to improve health-care everywhere.
4. Establishing more universities in Africa are not ruled out by the fact that Europe currently has better health-care; meanwhile, western universities might offer scholarships programs for promising students from Africa.
Yeah.... so how do you plan on getting people into universities when they drop out of high school to feed their families?

Scholarships are great. If your family isn't starving.

How do you plan on getting those students to return to Africa once done studying? Most of them use the opportunity to fuck off and move to Europe/USA.
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:34 pm 5. I don't want to convince any more foreigners to go and interfere in African affairs.
Hiring expert immigrants is literally the only short-term solution you have in hand until you develop your own pipeline for churning out medical experts. Otherwise you are making some long-term gambles and hoping the stars align.
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:34 pm 6. The existence of variables doesn't mean everything is already going just fine.
Yeah, but it does mean that if it were possible to turn Ghana into France in 5 years somebody would've done it by now. You aren't as smart as you think you are.

And it does mean that any "substantial" gains even in France will either require years of iterative improvement or radical re-invention.

It's not all low-hanging fruit waiting for a genius-Philosopher.
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:34 pm Point taken. Hey USA! Go do like France!
So... the population of France is 1/5th that of USA, and the USA is about 16 times the area.

You MAY be overlooking some of the logistical challenges.
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

I don’t know where else other than in a post of mine the talk of investment came up, but I can clarify if it at all matters to anyone.

I was NOT talking about investments on the stock market. I was NOT talking about buying shares of stock nor about cashing in shares of stock.

The investment in healthcare, as I intended it, is the pouring of money from taxes and private sources into healthcare for such things as MRI machines, syringes, staff salaries, medical research and more. The injection of money into healthcare for the purpose of treating the sick and injured—that’s what I meant when I referenced investment.
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:44 pm Ahhh. Policies. So you think "conscious and decisive action" happens top-down, not bottom-up.
I have never yet heard of a bill drafted by an unemployed ex-con passed in a congress or parliament.
Those lazy politicians!
Some are. Some are chicken-shit. Some are incompetent. Some are loyal to a bad leader. Some are intent on a 'career-path'. Some have anti-socialist convictions. Or campaign contributors.
Yeah.... so how do you plan on getting people into universities when they drop out of high school to feed their families?
By slapping big juicy tax levies on the top 0.01% of wealth? Just a thought.
Scholarships are great. If your family isn't starving.
At least we know capitalism is still hard at work.
Hiring expert immigrants is literally the only short-term solution you have in hand until you develop your own pipeline for churning out medical experts. Otherwise you are making some long-term gambles and hoping the stars align.
I'm not doing any of those things. Not my country; not my call.
Yeah, but it does mean that if it were possible to turn Ghana into France in 5 years somebody would've done it by now.
Why 5 years? Why France instead of Honduras, which is more similar? Who tried?
The US could have done it decades ago, and hasn't; indeed, it's still wrangling over the pitifully maimed version of a barely adequate improvement the Obama government finally enacted, more or less, pending Republican jurists' repugnant rulings.
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:34 pm So... the population of France is 1/5th that of USA, and the USA is about 16 times the area.
And 6 times France's GDP.
You MAY be overlooking some of the logistical challenges.
Last I heard, Americans were quite the most mobile nation in the world. Geographic regions are far less of an obstacle to health-care delivery than economic and political regions.
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

commonsense wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:54 pm The investment in healthcare, as I intended it, is the pouring of money from taxes and private sources into healthcare for such things as MRI machines, syringes, staff salaries, medical research and more. The injection of money into healthcare for the purpose of treating the sick and injured—that’s what I meant when I referenced investment.
I know what you meant.
How about diverting Space Force and Border Wall funds to school wellness programs and mobile clinics?
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 pm I have never yet heard of a bill drafted by an unemployed ex-con passed in a congress or parliament.
So you think bills in parliament is what triggers decisive action on the ground?

If the politicians hadn't drafted it! Nobody woulda thunk to do it otherwise. Top-down thinkers are hilarious.

It's people working from the bottom up is how stuff even lands up on politicians' desks.
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 pm By slapping big juicy tax levies on the top 0.01% of wealth? Just a thought.
And the wealth would let you do this why?
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 pm I'm not doing any of those things. Not my country; not my call.
So what is your call then? Do better, Ghana!!! You can do it! Woo hoo!
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 pm Why 5 years? Why France instead of Honduras, which is more similar? Who tried?
So you must be pre-supposing that nobody did. Because all they needed was Skip to tell them to try it, right?

Nobody came up with that idea... *doh*
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 pm The US could have done it decades ago, and hasn't; indeed, it's still wrangling over the pitifully maimed version of a barely adequate improvement the Obama government finally enacted, more or less, pending Republican jurists' repugnant rulings.
The mere fact that USA is not like France should tell you that there are problems you don't understand, no? Otherwise what could possibly be the reason all countries aren't virtually the same and perfect in every respect. Just like France!
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 pm And 6 times France's GDP.
And half the tax rate.
Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 pm Last I heard, Americans were quite the most mobile nation in the world. Geographic regions are far less of an obstacle to health-care delivery than economic and political regions.
So then explain to me how this works in your mind?

USA has the resources to be as good if not better than France, and yet it isn't and you think it's something stupid like "you guys aren't even trying!!! Let me show you how to do it, morons!"
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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by henry quirk »

the devil is not profit; the devil is taxes and fees, and liability insurance

parasitism is the problem

I suggest -- since the ticks aren't goin' anywhere anytime soon -- exitin', to the extent possible for you, the system

I, for example, while bein' healthy and fit, have had some health concerns

I went shoppin', not for plans or packages but for practitioners willin' to treat my uninsured carcass off the books

it's not a perfect solution (obviously, someone in need of a transplant probably won't find a gray/black market path to proper care), but, for moderate medical needs, there's a surprisin' number of practitioners willin' to charge the $1000 they need for materials, labor, and profit instead of the $10,000 required to feed the gov and the insurer

and some are willin' to barter, leavin' cash completely out of the transaction

legwork and discreet but plain inquiry is all it takes, and the willingness to haggle
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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by henry quirk »

Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:14 pm
commonsense wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:54 pm The investment in healthcare, as I intended it, is the pouring of money from taxes and private sources into healthcare for such things as MRI machines, syringes, staff salaries, medical research and more. The injection of money into healthcare for the purpose of treating the sick and injured—that’s what I meant when I referenced investment.
I know what you meant.
How about diverting Space Force and Border Wall funds to school wellness programs and mobile clinics?
or mebbe we could refrain from jackassery like sending 25 million to pakistan for transgender studies
Skip
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skip »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:23 pm
And the wealth would let you do this why?
Now you're getting it!
It can't be done, because "the wealth" won't allow it.
Skepdick
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Skepdick »

Skip wrote: Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:13 pm Now you're getting it!
It can't be done, because "the wealth" won't allow it.
So why did the wealth in France, Italy, Japan and Israel allow it and the wealth in the USA didn't?
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