Identity Politics

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Terrapin Station »

mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm You have missed my point, entirely I think. I consider myself to be a philosopher, certainly. I place myself in the category of philosophers.

That has nothing to do with my identity. It is rather the opposite of my identity, since it describes one of the ways in which I am part of a collective. "Philosopher" isn't just me; there are millions in the category.
Your first post in this thread seemed pretty on-target, but this one seems bizarrely confused (given that you explained identity well in that first post). Why would you be thinking that identity in the relevant sense doesn't place one in a collective, doesn't place one in a category that can contain millions of people? (As a side-note, millions of philosophers seems like quite a stretch. That would result in a lot of unemployed and unpublished philosophers, since there aren't that many jobs to go around--there aren't more than 6,000 schools in the U.S. for example, and they don't all have sizeable philosophy departments, and there isn't that much being published--it's probably a stretch to say that there are even 1,000 philosophy journals worldwide, for example.)
KLewchuk
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by KLewchuk »

mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm
KLewchuk wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:34 am Let's say you are a philosopher. I can see how you might have a certain attachment to your identity as a philosophy.
You have missed my point, entirely I think. I consider myself to be a philosopher, certainly. I place myself in the category of philosophers.

That has nothing to do with my identity. It is rather the opposite of my identity, since it describes one of the ways in which I am part of a collective. "Philosopher" isn't just me; there are millions in the category.

If you want to know which philsopher is me, you need to find the one called "mickthinks"*.


*In case there is any doubt, "mickthinks" is my real name in real life.

Replace "philosopher" with "X"; my point is that there are things more worthy to create our identity and things less worthy to create our identity.
Skepdick
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Skepdick »

mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm You have missed my point, entirely I think. I consider myself to be a philosopher, certainly. I place myself in the category of philosophers.
So your collective identity is one of "philosopher". Mine isn't. And much more explicitly i am NOT a philosopher.

Philosophy is what I DO. But as a general rule of thumb I prefer to distance myself from the collective called "Philosophers" for various, pragmatic reasons.
mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm That has nothing to do with my identity.
Then why do you call yourself as philosopher?
mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm It is rather the opposite of my identity, since it describes one of the ways in which I am part of a collective. "Philosopher" isn't just me; there are millions in the category.
Identity is that which identifies you. You wouldn't need to be identified if you weren't in a collective.
mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm If you want to know which philsopher is me, you need to find the one called "mickthinks"*
What if I want to know which human is you?

Identity is uniqueness with respect to ALL properties. Including location/trajectory through space-time.
Skepdick
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Skepdick »

KLewchuk wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 7:56 pm Replace "philosopher" with "X"; my point is that there are things more worthy to create our identity and things less worthy to create our identity.
You are conflating the notion of identity (uniqueness with respect to all properties, including world-line through spacetime) ; the notion of defining/conceptualising oneself (what am I?); and the notion of our contextualising oneself (who am I?); and the notion of creating oneself (who or what do I want to become?)

Irrespective of how I fashion my self-narrative: in terms of my profession; or my hobbies; or my membership to a collective; or virtues; or religion; or creed; or philosophy; or history; or my achievements my identity never changes.

I am I and no other.
I don't know what I am (Biologists, Physicists, Anthropologists and Sociologists have different ideas)
Who I am is human. I have a name and a history.
Sometimes, I can even tell you what I want from the future.
mickthinks
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by mickthinks »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:03 pm... i am NOT a philosopher.
I agree.
mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm If you want to know which philsopher is me, you need to find the one called "mickthinks"*
What if I want to know which human is you?
I see that as the same question and I would answer in the same way, though perhaps it might require the extra detail I indicated to in my first reply. I guess you didn't read it properly.
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Sculptor
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Sculptor »

KLewchuk wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:38 am What is "identity"?

Do we need "identity"?

How important is "identity"?

If we can ascribe value, what should be the most important things we use to identify ourselves? What are the least important?
Identity is a ball and chain mobilized by the political elites to give crumbs of solace to the populace by convincing them they are doing something positive for all of them, whilst all the while they are distracting the people from the fact that the real divisions in society are about class, privilege, and inequality.
The ineptitude of Labour and Democrats to address serious structural economic problems is masked by race, and gender issues which help the establishment divide interests from economic ones.
On the other side, the right tend to choose one set of identities to do the same thing.
Skepdick
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Skepdick »

mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm I agree.
And even if you didn't, I still wouldn't be one.
mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm I see that as the same question and I would answer in the same way, though perhaps it might require the extra detail I indicated to in my first reply. I guess you didn't read it properly.
You guessed wrong.

"Which philosopher are you?"; and "Which human are you?"; and "Which mammal are you?"; and "Which X are you?" (for every X you think you belong to) are not the same question. They just happen to produce the same answer. Which should make it pertinently obvious that your identity doesn't hinge on group membership.

You are confusing identify with identification. If I am speaking to you I've already identified you.
KLewchuk
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by KLewchuk »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:13 pm
mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm I agree.
And even if you didn't, I still wouldn't be one.
mickthinks wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:49 pm I see that as the same question and I would answer in the same way, though perhaps it might require the extra detail I indicated to in my first reply. I guess you didn't read it properly.
You guessed wrong.

"Which philosopher are you?"; and "Which human are you?"; and "Which mammal are you?"; and "Which X are you?" (for every X you think you belong to) are not the same question. They just happen to produce the same answer. Which should make it pertinently obvious that your identity doesn't hinge on group membership.

You are confusing identify with identification. If I am speaking to you I've already identified you.
Omer gerd,

Each person is a certain ven diagram of traits, which makes each person pretty unique. However, non of these traits individually are unique in that they are categories shares by others (i.e. groups).

However, that is not what I was alluding to. Psychologically, people cling to certain traits part of their identity and ignore others. Which traits ought we cling to, and which ought we ignore?
Skepdick
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Skepdick »

KLewchuk wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:03 am Each person is a certain ven diagram of traits, which makes each person pretty unique. However, non of these traits individually are unique in that they are categories shares by others (i.e. groups).
Identity implies uniqueness.

You aren't a "certain" venn diagram of traits. You are the venn diagram of ALL your traits, the intersection of which is necessarily universally unique across spacetime.
KLewchuk wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:03 am However, that is not what I was alluding to. Psychologically, people cling to certain traits part of their identity and ignore others. Which traits ought we cling to, and which ought we ignore?
Like I said, that isn't your identity. That's an incomplete set of your traits, behaviour, hobbies and and history etc. It's the narrative you've fashioned about yourself, but it's not even close to capturing your actual identity.

The "I am a philosopher" bullshit. Nobody is a philosopher. Some people DO philosophy. Some people DO philosophy for a living. Their profession is "philosopher", but their profession is not their identity.

The entire framing/question of identity a non-sequitur for me. I am Skepdick - I got many facets and multitudes and I won't reduce myself to a sound-byte. What do you want to know about me?
KLewchuk
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by KLewchuk »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:45 am
KLewchuk wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:03 am Each person is a certain ven diagram of traits, which makes each person pretty unique. However, non of these traits individually are unique in that they are categories shares by others (i.e. groups).
Identity implies uniqueness.

You aren't a "certain" venn diagram of traits. You are the venn diagram of ALL your traits, the intersection of which is necessarily universally unique across spacetime.
KLewchuk wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:03 am However, that is not what I was alluding to. Psychologically, people cling to certain traits part of their identity and ignore others. Which traits ought we cling to, and which ought we ignore?
Like I said, that isn't your identity. That's an incomplete set of your traits, behaviour, hobbies and and history etc. It's the narrative you've fashioned about yourself, but it's not even close to capturing your actual identity.

The "I am a philosopher" bullshit. Nobody is a philosopher. Some people DO philosophy. Some people DO philosophy for a living. Their profession is "philosopher", but their profession is not their identity.

The entire framing/question of identity a non-sequitur for me. I am Skepdick - I got many facets and multitudes and I won't reduce myself to a sound-byte. What do you want to know about me?
I repeat, Omer Gerd,

After reading your responses, I completely agree with you... you are not a Philosopher.
Skepdick
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Skepdick »

KLewchuk wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:22 am I repeat, Omer Gerd,

After reading your responses, I completely agree with you... you are not a Philosopher.
Non-sequitur. Your agreement/disagreement amounts to nothing.

But having pointed out that I am not a Philosopher I also pointed out that nobody IS a Philosopher. Not even you.

Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Kant, Descartes, Hegel, Quine, Rorty, Wittgenstein etc.. They weren't Philosophers either! And, philosophically speaking. why that is the case seems to have gone over your head.

You can't bestow identity. Not to yourself, not to anybody.

What you are talking about is not identity - it's defining yourself. You can define yourself (and fashion that definition) however you wish, it won't be representative of your identity.
mickthinks
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by mickthinks »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 11:13 pm... your identity doesn't hinge on group membership.
Yes, that is precisely the point. The categories I belong to, no matter how politically significant they might be to me and to others, have nothing to do with my identity. "Identity politics" is simply a misuse of the word "identity".
Last edited by mickthinks on Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Skepdick »

mickthinks wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:30 am Yes, that is precisely the point. The categories I am in, no matter how politically significant they might be to me and to others, have nothing to do with my identity. "Identity politics" is a misuse of the word "identity".
So where did we miss each other on "Identity is uniqueness with respect to ALL properties. Including location/trajectory through space-time." ?
mickthinks
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by mickthinks »

lol You tell me!
Skepdick
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Re: Identity Politics

Post by Skepdick »

mickthinks wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:36 am lol You tell me!
You want me to tell you where you missed me despite my definition?
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