death with dignity

[henry quirk]

a person will say sumthin' like I belong to myself...my life, liberty, and property are mine

a human cog will say sumthin' like I am a small part of an immense natural system, from which I cannot detach myself. I was made from that system, I am influenced by that system continually, I am dependent on that system continually, and my body and mind are going to do what they do within and based on that system whether "I" always approve/agree or not.

You simply do not understand what is beyond your small view and ego. Apparently for you, it's pretty much all about you. And somehow you don't see how that makes you a perfect pawn for others who cater to that delusional agenda. Your life, liberty, and property are only what you get to experience because of many other people and circumstances. And those things can be taken away in an instant. As can your control over your body. Then what are you left with? At that point, what do you belong to?

yeah, lace, you done said all this before, in one way or another...you an't movin', I ain't movin'...same as it always was

[henry quirk]

a person will say sumthin' like I belong to myself...my life, liberty, and property are mine

a human cog will say sumthin' like I am a small part of an immense natural system, from which I cannot detach myself. I was made from that system, I am influenced by that system continually, I am dependent on that system continually, and my body and mind are going to do what they do within and based on that system whether "I" always approve/agree or not.

Those aren't mutually exclusive. A proper person by those standards can also truthfully acknowledge their stuckness in the machine. You don't stop being a person the moment someone puts duct-tape on your mouth. The acceptance of the truth of "made from that system" is critically different than an acceptance of "made for that system". And regardless of the acknowledgement, the system does and will have it's way with you.

yeah, that ain't the way it is, not for everybody, anyway

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484800 time=1607962231 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=484792 time=1607960394 user_id=15238]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484766 time=1607946982 user_id=472]
a person will say sumthin' like [i]I belong to myself...my life, liberty, and property are mine[/i]

a human cog will say sumthin' like [i]I am a small part of an immense natural system, from which I cannot detach myself. I was made from that system, I am influenced by that system continually, I am dependent on that system continually, and my body and mind are going to do what they do within and based on that system whether "I" always approve/agree or not.[/i]
[/quote]

Those aren't mutually exclusive. A proper person by those standards can also truthfully acknowledge their stuckness in the machine. You don't stop being a person the moment someone puts duct-tape on your mouth. The acceptance of the truth of "made from that system" is critically different than an acceptance of "made for that system". And regardless of the acknowledgement, [b]the system does and will have it's way with you[/b].
[/quote]

yeah, that ain't the way it is, not for everybody, anyway
[/quote]

You can define yourself in opposition to the system or in conjunction with it, but always in relation to it. We cannot exist outside of relation to it, even if we could get outside of it, because it controls almost all resources at the commodity level. This includes land, air and airspace.

[henry quirk]

You can define yourself in opposition to the system or in conjunction with it, but always in relation to it. We cannot exist outside of relation to it, even if we could get outside of it, because it controls almost all resources at the commodity level. This includes land, air and airspace.

reality has me; the human habitrail, not so much

[Belinda]

I agree, B, but lace apparently doesn't...that bit up there, the lacewing is a small part of... spiel, she wrote that, not me...I just plugged her name and pronouns into it

So what do you think is(are) the attribute(s) of persons that separates them from commodities like cogs?

well, I got no interest in gettin' involved in another what is a person? conversation...those never satisfy

instead, I'll just point out...

a person will say sumthin' like I belong to myself...my life, liberty, and property are mine

a human cog will say sumthin' like I am a small part of an immense natural system, from which I cannot detach myself. I was made from that system, I am influenced by that system continually, I am dependent on that system continually, and my body and mind are going to do what they do within and based on that system whether "I" always approve/agree or not.





You describe the two poles pretty well.You missed out the middle between the two poles.


Lacewing > ---degrees---- of---- freedom ---- > cog

[henry quirk]

there is no middle

[Belinda]

You missed out the middle between the two poles.

there is no middle

But you yourself . like Lacewing, are more free than a cog.Some others are less free than you, but some others are more free than you.

[henry quirk]

You missed out the middle between the two poles.

there is no middle

But you yourself . like Lacewing, are more free than a cog.Some others are less free than you, but some others are more free than you.

lace is a human cog (a person hoodwinked into believin' the boot on her neck is a good thing)

I am a free man (my face is not pressed to the ground, my throat has no boot -- or leash-- on it)

there is no middle ground...you are one or the other

[Advocate]

Freedom is real as a feeling, not as an expression of external capacity. It can be an expression of Apparent external capacity, but that makes it contingent on perspective.

[Belinda]

You missed out the middle between the two poles.

there is no middle

But you yourself . like Lacewing, are more free than a cog.Some others are less free than you, but some others are more free than you.

lace is a human cog (a person hoodwinked into believin' the boot on her neck is a good thing)

I am a free man (my face is not pressed to the ground, my throat has no boot -- or leash-- on it)

there is no middle ground...you are one or the other

Henry Quirk is less free if/when he has broken his wrist, and if/when he looses his temper. Henry Quirk is more free when he knows how to get his debtors to pay their bills, and if/when he knows his own strengths and weaknesses.

[henry quirk]

tell you what, B & A, you two go do freedom as you like

me: I'm gonna keep on keepin' on with what works

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484836 time=1607970562 user_id=472]
tell you what, B & A, you two go do freedom as you like

me: I'm gonna keep on keepin' on with what works
[/quote]

An answer is a framework for understanding. A solution is a bespoke action plan. You seem to be confusing the two. Understanding freedom as a cheat code on causality is baseless as an answer.

[henry quirk]

tell you what, B & A, you two go do freedom as you like

me: I'm gonna keep on keepin' on with what works

An answer is a framework for understanding. A solution is a bespoke action plan. You seem to be confusing the two. Understanding freedom as a cheat code on causality is baseless as an answer.

A, I know you're a philosopher, that you think got the whole of everything pegged, and that folks ought to listen to you, but...

I don't care, I don't think so, and I won't

it is what it is, fella

[Advocate]

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484840 time=1607971580 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=484837 time=1607970698 user_id=15238]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484836 time=1607970562 user_id=472]
tell you what, B & A, you two go do freedom as you like

me: I'm gonna keep on keepin' on with what works
[/quote]

An answer is a framework for understanding. A solution is a bespoke action plan. You seem to be confusing the two. Understanding freedom as a cheat code on causality is baseless as an answer.
[/quote]

A, I know you're a [i]philosopher[/i], that you think got the whole of [i]everything[/i] pegged, and that folks ought to listen to you, but...

I don't care, I don't think so, and I won't

it is what it is, fella
[/quote]

...and he ambled off into the sunset, whistling a gypsy tune under his breath.

[henry quirk]

An answer is a framework for understanding. A solution is a bespoke action plan. You seem to be confusing the two. Understanding freedom as a cheat code on causality is baseless as an answer.

A, I know you're a philosopher, that you think got the whole of everything pegged, and that folks ought to listen to you, but...

I don't care, I don't think so, and I won't

it is what it is, fella

...and he ambled off into the sunset, whistling a gypsy tune under his breath.

actually, I went got a cup of coffee