death with dignity

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

Do you really think a few words/ideas, applied in any one of countless self-serving and distorted ways, REALLY serves as a singular ultimate principle to live by?

so, this...

*Lacewing/veg/advocate/anyone belongs to herself/himself

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, and property are hers/his

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, or property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when she/he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

...isn't enough to (1)recognize anyone'self-ownership and (2)establish the limit of what is permissible among people?

but ten thousand contradictory laws are...okay
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

Advocate wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:16 am So about death...
like I say: if you want out, man up: eat shot
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

and that concludes my broadcast day...g'night, forum
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: death with dignity

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:05 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:56 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:43 am

so good enough is good enough for you...okay

so: I guess this...

thanks to an Aussie fuckwad we are about to lose a huge chunk of our 'freedom' thanks to a wokie govt. that is desperate to pander to the demands of muslim immigrants, and wants to punish the entire population for its own cock-ups.

...was just hyperbole...or mebbe lettin' a wokie gov carve out a chunk of your liberty is just the price folks have to pay for good enough
I'm flattered, but you seem to have a very inflated view of how much power I have as an individual. I'm not a leader type, and I'm not a follower either. If people are upset enough about the loss of free speech then they will show it at the next election. It takes 'many' people to feel strongly enough about 'something' to elicit change. That's the infuriating thing. It took SO long for people to get the freedoms they have now, and only the stroke of a pen to lose them.
It's civilisation that you seem to be against.
you missed my point...that's okay

no, I'm promotin' the only civilization worth havin'...one where a fuckwad with a pen can't take your liberty
Why do you think I loathe wokism so much? It exploits the natural human need to be thought well of. If you object then they come back with manipulative bullshit like 'wah, wah, why do you like 'hate speech' '? Moronic wankers.
Advocate
Posts: 3470
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: death with dignity

Post by Advocate »

[quote=vegetariantaxidermy post_id=484253 time=1607657283 user_id=8006]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484242 time=1607652354 user_id=472]
[quote=vegetariantaxidermy post_id=484238 time=1607651783 user_id=8006]


I'm flattered, but you seem to have a very inflated view of how much power I have as an individual. I'm not a leader type, and I'm not a follower either. If people are upset enough about the loss of free speech then they will show it at the next election. It takes 'many' people to feel strongly enough about 'something' to elicit change. That's the infuriating thing. It took SO long for people to get the freedoms they have now, and only the stroke of a pen to lose them.
It's civilisation that you seem to be against.
[/quote]

you missed my point...that's okay

no, I'm promotin' the only civilization worth havin'...one where a fuckwad with a pen can't take your liberty
[/quote]

Why do you think I loathe wokism so much? It exploits the natural human need to be thought well of. If you object then they come back with manipulative bullshit like 'wah, wah, why do you like 'hate speech' '? Moronic wankers.
[/quote]

This argument goes all the way back to the roots of philosophy, only it was about poetry and rhetoric then, same points. We must insist our reasoned, more evolved minds take precedent over feelings if we want to move beyond ethical animal status. Some people are not yet people, and some are indeed Better in every way that matters than others because they use their abilities to make things better generally instead of individually with externalities. Working against emotional manipulation is a sign of emotional and ethical maturity.
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6604
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: death with dignity

Post by Lacewing »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:20 am Do you really think a few words/ideas, applied in any one of countless self-serving and distorted ways, REALLY serves as a singular ultimate principle to live by?

so, this...

*Lacewing/veg/advocate/anyone belongs to herself/himself

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, and property are hers/his

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, or property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when she/he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

...isn't enough to (1)recognize anyone'self-ownership and (2)establish the limit of what is permissible among people?

but ten thousand contradictory laws are...okay
There is no real ownership in a vast interdependent/connected system. All parts within the system are moving, aligning, balancing, evolving, and EXCHANGING. To fortify yourself with separatist thinking, such as demanding and glorifying what you see as "yours" (whether it be physical things or thoughts), is a rigid position of ignorance and denial within the larger system you are part of. Yes, YOU do make it about you while ignoring all else.

There is more to consider in a vast interdependent/connected system.
Advocate
Posts: 3470
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: death with dignity

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Lacewing post_id=484318 time=1607711212 user_id=11228]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484246 time=1607653204 user_id=472]
[b]Do you really think a few words/ideas, applied in any one of countless self-serving and distorted ways, REALLY serves as a singular ultimate principle to live by?[/b]

so, this...

*Lacewing/veg/advocate/anyone belongs to herself/himself

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, and property are hers/his

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, or property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when she/he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

...isn't enough to (1)recognize anyone'self-ownership and (2)establish the limit of what is permissible among people?

but ten thousand contradictory laws are...okay
[/quote]
There is no real ownership in a vast interdependent/connected system. All parts within the system are moving, aligning, balancing, evolving, and EXCHANGING. To fortify yourself with separatist thinking, such as demanding and glorifying what you see as "yours" (whether it be physical things or thoughts), is a rigid position of ignorance and denial within the larger system you are part of. Yes, YOU do make it about you while ignoring all else.

There is more to consider in a vast interdependent/connected system.
[/quote]

Ownership is best understood as certainty of access and control.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:26 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:20 am Do you really think a few words/ideas, applied in any one of countless self-serving and distorted ways, REALLY serves as a singular ultimate principle to live by?

so, this...

*Lacewing/veg/advocate/anyone belongs to herself/himself

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, and property are hers/his

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, or property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when she/he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

...isn't enough to (1)recognize anyone'self-ownership and (2)establish the limit of what is permissible among people?

but ten thousand contradictory laws are...okay
There is no real ownership in a vast interdependent/connected system. All parts within the system are moving, aligning, balancing, evolving, and EXCHANGING. To fortify yourself with separatist thinking, such as demanding and glorifying what you see as "yours" (whether it be physical things or thoughts), is a rigid position of ignorance and denial within the larger system you are part of. Yes, YOU do make it about you while ignoring all else.

There is more to consider in a vast interdependent/connected system.
so: you, Lacewing, do not belong to yourself...you, as a person, are not your own...okay
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

Advocate wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:43 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:26 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:20 am Do you really think a few words/ideas, applied in any one of countless self-serving and distorted ways, REALLY serves as a singular ultimate principle to live by?

so, this...

*Lacewing/veg/advocate/anyone belongs to herself/himself

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, and property are hers/his

*Lacewing's/veg's/advocate's/anyone's life, liberty, or property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when she/he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

...isn't enough to (1)recognize anyone'self-ownership and (2)establish the limit of what is permissible among people?

but ten thousand contradictory laws are...okay
There is no real ownership in a vast interdependent/connected system. All parts within the system are moving, aligning, balancing, evolving, and EXCHANGING. To fortify yourself with separatist thinking, such as demanding and glorifying what you see as "yours" (whether it be physical things or thoughts), is a rigid position of ignorance and denial within the larger system you are part of. Yes, YOU do make it about you while ignoring all else.

There is more to consider in a vast interdependent/connected system.
Ownership is best understood as certainty of access and control.
if so: I can't imagine any one not belonging to himself...you are your body...you have continuous access to yourself...even under the most extreme coercion, you still control yourself
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:28 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:05 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:56 am

I'm flattered, but you seem to have a very inflated view of how much power I have as an individual. I'm not a leader type, and I'm not a follower either. If people are upset enough about the loss of free speech then they will show it at the next election. It takes 'many' people to feel strongly enough about 'something' to elicit change. That's the infuriating thing. It took SO long for people to get the freedoms they have now, and only the stroke of a pen to lose them.
It's civilisation that you seem to be against.
you missed my point...that's okay

no, I'm promotin' the only civilization worth havin'...one where a fuckwad with a pen can't take your liberty
Why do you think I loathe wokism so much? It exploits the natural human need to be thought well of. If you object then they come back with manipulative bullshit like 'wah, wah, why do you like 'hate speech' '? Moronic wankers.
but as much as you loath it (and this was my point from up-thread) you won't defy it when a fuckwad, with a signature, codifies wokism as law...if the fuckwad sez no more bad talk about muslims or islam, you'll abide, even though you know it's bad law

that's what I don't understand, veg
Advocate
Posts: 3470
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: death with dignity

Post by Advocate »

[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484322 time=1607712853 user_id=472]
[quote=Advocate post_id=484320 time=1607712182 user_id=15238]
[quote=Lacewing post_id=484318 time=1607711212 user_id=11228]

There is no real ownership in a vast interdependent/connected system. All parts within the system are moving, aligning, balancing, evolving, and EXCHANGING. To fortify yourself with separatist thinking, such as demanding and glorifying what you see as "yours" (whether it be physical things or thoughts), is a rigid position of ignorance and denial within the larger system you are part of. Yes, YOU do make it about you while ignoring all else.

There is more to consider in a vast interdependent/connected system.
[/quote]

Ownership is best understood as certainty of access and control.
[/quote]

if so: I can't imagine any one not belonging to himself...you are your body...you have continuous access to yourself...even under the most extreme coercion, you still control yourself
[/quote]

It takes a good deal less than extreme coercion to prove that wrong. It happens every time you're not paying attention. Your subconscious doesn't always act on your behalf, and it never asks permission. The only thing you control in any meaningful sense is your attention, and only that to the extent allowed by biology and prior experience.

In an exterior sense you only own yourself to the extent you can convince others to leave you alone.
User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 13983
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: death with dignity

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:00 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:28 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:05 am

you missed my point...that's okay

no, I'm promotin' the only civilization worth havin'...one where a fuckwad with a pen can't take your liberty
Why do you think I loathe wokism so much? It exploits the natural human need to be thought well of. If you object then they come back with manipulative bullshit like 'wah, wah, why do you like 'hate speech' '? Moronic wankers.
but as much as you loath it (and this was my point from up-thread) you won't defy it when a fuckwad, with a signature, codifies wokism as law...if the fuckwad sez no more bad talk about muslims or islam, you'll abide, even though you know it's bad law

that's what I don't understand, veg
What would you expect me to do? The most I can do is write about it when the opportunity arises and hope that others can see a reasoned argument. Political Correctness has the whole population in a stranglehold--EVERYWHERE.
It's not just muslims of course. You can't criticise ANY 'PROTECTED GROUP' because apparently those people breathe a different air from the rest of us. People get arrested in the UK for saying that men can't be women.
Advocate
Posts: 3470
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: death with dignity

Post by Advocate »

[quote=vegetariantaxidermy post_id=484335 time=1607718569 user_id=8006]
[quote="henry quirk" post_id=484324 time=1607713217 user_id=472]
[quote=vegetariantaxidermy post_id=484253 time=1607657283 user_id=8006]


Why do you think I loathe wokism so much? It exploits the natural human need to be thought well of. If you object then they come back with manipulative bullshit like 'wah, wah, why do you like 'hate speech' '? Moronic wankers.
[/quote]

but as much as you loath it (and this was my point from up-thread) you won't defy it when a fuckwad, with a signature, codifies wokism as law...if the fuckwad sez no more bad talk about muslims or islam, you'll abide, even though you know it's bad law

that's what I don't understand, veg
[/quote]

What would you expect me to do? The most I can do is write about it when the opportunity arises and hope that others can see a reasoned argument. Political Correctness has the whole population in a stranglehold--EVERYWHERE.
It's not just muslims of course. You can't criticise ANY 'PROTECTED GROUP' because apparently those people breathe a different air from the rest of us. People get arrested in the UK for saying that men can't be women.
[/quote]

I've been censored by about half of the educational institutions i've attended and most of the social media outlets, and not in any of those cases for doing something that actually broke the rules, except to the extend they can be stretched to cover ordinary speech and behaviour.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

Advocate wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:21 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:54 pm
Advocate wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:43 pm

Ownership is best understood as certainty of access and control.
if so: I can't imagine any one not belonging to himself...you are your body...you have continuous access to yourself...even under the most extreme coercion, you still control yourself
It takes a good deal less than extreme coercion to prove that wrong. It happens every time you're not paying attention. Your subconscious doesn't always act on your behalf, and it never asks permission. The only thing you control in any meaningful sense is your attention, and only that to the extent allowed by biology and prior experience.

In an exterior sense you only own yourself to the extent you can convince others to leave you alone.
yeah, I don't compartmentalize myself that way...if I'm not payin' attention, it's just me, not payin' attention...and, no, I don't experience internal conflicts (reason vs emotions, out of control appetites, etc.)...I reckon all that nonsense to be a cultural holdover from the days of that old cokehead freud coupled with the error that cuz neurotics & nutjobs compartmentalize & feel conflicted, everyone compartmentalizes & is conflicted

as for predation by others: even when successfully hobbled, thrown into a cell, for example, the hobbled person is still his own...he can, if nuthin' else, hate his imprisoner, and plot to escape or get revenge..that is: even in shackles, one is not obligated to submit

no, by your standard of access & control (not my standard, by the way), Lacewing belongs to herself (even if she thinks otherwise)

I suggest you hunt down my pithy red meat thread about ownness for other thoughts on the subject
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 14706
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: Right here, a little less busy.

Re: death with dignity

Post by henry quirk »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:29 pm
henry quirk wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:00 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:28 am

Why do you think I loathe wokism so much? It exploits the natural human need to be thought well of. If you object then they come back with manipulative bullshit like 'wah, wah, why do you like 'hate speech' '? Moronic wankers.
but as much as you loath it (and this was my point from up-thread) you won't defy it when a fuckwad, with a signature, codifies wokism as law...if the fuckwad sez no more bad talk about muslims or islam, you'll abide, even though you know it's bad law

that's what I don't understand, veg
What would you expect me to do? The most I can do is write about it when the opportunity arises and hope that others can see a reasoned argument. Political Correctness has the whole population in a stranglehold--EVERYWHERE.
It's not just muslims of course. You can't criticise ANY 'PROTECTED GROUP' because apparently those people breathe a different air from the rest of us. People get arrested in the UK for saying that men can't be women.
mebbe, I'm suggestin' you ought to resist what you know is wrong...or not...that's solely your call
Post Reply