Cuties

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Harbal
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Re: Cuties

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:53 pm I'm referring to the sociological perspective concerned with how society as a whole works. Plato called it the Beast. But within the Beast, all people are different. But why is society as a whole so ignorant of the purposes of sex energy or so eager to profit out of sexualizing 11 year olds that we allow it to happen?
I suppose it is one of the costs of the freedoms that you were appreciating in one of your other threads. We wouldn't be very free if we were only allowed to exercise the freedoms you or anyone else approved of. If these "Cuties" are considered a step too far by society in general, and an abuse of freedom, I daresay the pressure of public opinion will bring about some sort of action against it.
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Re: Cuties

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:06 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:53 pm I'm referring to the sociological perspective concerned with how society as a whole works. Plato called it the Beast. But within the Beast, all people are different. But why is society as a whole so ignorant of the purposes of sex energy or so eager to profit out of sexualizing 11 year olds that we allow it to happen?
I suppose it is one of the costs of the freedoms that you were appreciating in one of your other threads. We wouldn't be very free if we were only allowed to exercise the freedoms you or anyone else approved of. If these "Cuties" are considered a step too far by society in general, and an abuse of freedom, I daresay the pressure of public opinion will bring about some sort of action against it.
Very true and it is why John Adams wrote:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance. It needs help from above. Otherwise we remain a slowly sinking "ship of fools" described by Plato.
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Harbal
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Re: Cuties

Post by Harbal »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance. It needs help from above. Otherwise we remain a slowly sinking "ship of fools" described by Plato.
I am the very last person qualified to contradict anyone on the American Constitution, Nick, but I was under the impression that, while it granted religious freedom, it also asserts that religion should play no part in the governance of the country.
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henry quirk
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Re: Cuties

Post by henry quirk »

Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance. It needs help from above. Otherwise we remain a slowly sinking "ship of fools" described by Plato.
I am the very last person qualified to contradict anyone on the American Constitution, Nick, but I was under the impression that, while it granted religious freedom, it also asserts that religion should play no part in the governance of the country.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Re: Cuties

Post by Nick_A »

Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance. It needs help from above. Otherwise we remain a slowly sinking "ship of fools" described by Plato.
I am the very last person qualified to contradict anyone on the American Constitution, Nick, but I was under the impression that, while it granted religious freedom, it also asserts that religion should play no part in the governance of the country.
Actually it is freedom from the government interfering with religious expression. We can define the quality of government but what is the quality of a religion? Granted society can live or die by the quality if its religion. Is there a way we can know which would allow a person to feel in their conscience (not by morality) why sexualizing an 11 year old is wrong?
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Re: Cuties

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:45 pm
Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:36 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:29 pm

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance. It needs help from above. Otherwise we remain a slowly sinking "ship of fools" described by Plato.
I am the very last person qualified to contradict anyone on the American Constitution, Nick, but I was under the impression that, while it granted religious freedom, it also asserts that religion should play no part in the governance of the country.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
OK so the ideals of America defend the right for the search for truth but at the same time do not allow government to establish a religion. Makes good sense to me.
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henry quirk
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this map...

Post by henry quirk »

874217C5-90BA-4DBF-A16D-0E1198DB1940.jpeg
874217C5-90BA-4DBF-A16D-0E1198DB1940.jpeg (77.54 KiB) Viewed 106 times

...is made for sumthin' else, but it'll serve to help me make a point

Nick, you say Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance.

I suggest the orange in the map is where you'll find the bulk of your secularists, the red (and mebbe the gray) is where you'll find the rest of us

obviously, I'm simplifyin': truth is, 'murica is a big place...as I've said elsewhere, there's little actual coherence or cohesion in a cultural sense (california is not louisiana is not colorado is not...)...the ties that bind us as a nation are loose (as was intended)

my point: we're not a secular nation cuz we're not solely a secular people...we ought not be judged by what parasites foist up as entertainment any more than we ought to be judged by what members of a powerful, but not omnipotent, minority do globally supposedly on behalf of, or in the name of, 'murica

the flaw in your thinkin' (which I admire, by the way) is this notion of nationhood as somehow bein' above and beyond the folks who actually are the nation, the society, the community
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henry quirk
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Re: Cuties

Post by henry quirk »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:55 pm
henry quirk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:45 pm
Harbal wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:36 pm

I am the very last person qualified to contradict anyone on the American Constitution, Nick, but I was under the impression that, while it granted religious freedom, it also asserts that religion should play no part in the governance of the country.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
OK so the ideals of America defend the right for the search for truth but at the same time do not allow government to establish a religion. Makes good sense to me.
gov should remain silent: neither supporting or inhibiting religious expression ('cept as that expression infringes on others [human sacrifice, slavery, etc.])

a clarification: a silent gov is not meant to silence or direct those who serve in gov

a man has a conscience that doesn't cease to be cuz he gets elected or appointed to service

where a man's conscience puts him at odds with such service, he ought to speak his mind, plead his case with his employers (the voters)...if he persuades them, brings them over to his side: great; where he fails to move them, he ought to opt out, resign, and step aside
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Sculptor
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Re: Cuties

Post by Sculptor »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:05 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:45 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:59 am

So the question remains: before deciding if dance can become porn we have to decide what porn is and if there a difference between child and adult porn?
Since "porn" derives from the Greek for depictions of prostitutes, any human offered for sale, or offering themselves for sale for the purpose of sex and depicted in any graphic medium can be called pornography.
If a child is offered up for sexual gratification in depictions that is porn, which is morally and legally wrong. If a child is touched then that is rape.
If a depiction of a "dance" is done for the purpose of sex with a view to commercial exploitation then that is "porn."

When they call a dance erotic, then that is "art".
So accepting your definition for the moment, are the dance scenes in Cuties pornographic? If they are, what does it say about humanity willing to entice 11 year olds not fully developed into pornography. Most sense something is wrong with it but cannot put it into words. Who can?
I've not yet seen it.
All things are subjective.
Pornography is in the eye of the beholder.
The criteria I set was twofold.
summarising
1. Sexually arousing
2. Exchange of money
If a person finds them arousing and money has been exchanged (not necessarily to the girl or from the aroused) then it is porn

Since the film is, I assume, trying to point to exploitation, rather than to exploit, the film as such is art, it can become pornographic subjectively to individuals - I would say that is NOT the intention of Netflix.

From the POV of the society that Cuties is depicting, it says that society is f*cked up. It has reached dangerously low levels of moral decay. The risk for Netflix is that it might be inadvertently have put itself in a position to promote this decline. That would depend on how low the audience might have gone in their lack of respect of humanity.
Despite this, it is better to demonstrate a problem rather than pretend it does not exist. Excessive prurience was the strategy of Victorian London which possibly had one of the greatest concentrations of prostitution in history. Whilst the Bourgeoisie covered up their table legs, and the men wore apparel contra onanism at night, others were busy spreading "social diseases" to and fro.
Will this film open up awareness? I hope so.
But a culture that has been in the habit is sexualising children for a very long time is unlikely to address its problems very soon.
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Sculptor
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Re: this map...

Post by Sculptor »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:02 pm 874217C5-90BA-4DBF-A16D-0E1198DB1940.jpeg


...is made for sumthin' else, but it'll serve to help me make a point

Nick, you say Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance.

I suggest the orange in the map is where you'll find the bulk of your secularists, the red (and mebbe the gray) is where you'll find the rest of us

obviously, I'm simplifyin': truth is, 'murica is a big place...as I've said elsewhere, there's little actual coherence or cohesion in a cultural sense (california is not louisiana is not colorado is not...)...the ties that bind us as a nation are loose (as was intended)

my point: we're not a secular nation cuz we're not solely a secular people...we ought not be judged by what parasites foist up as entertainment any more than we ought to be judged by what members of a powerful, but not omnipotent, minority do globally supposedly on behalf of, or in the name of, 'murica

the flaw in your thinkin' (which I admire, by the way) is this notion of nationhood as somehow bein' above and beyond the folks who actually are the nation, the society, the community
By your own rubric Louisiana is not even Louisiana, since the individuals that comprise it are not identical to one another, And a Person from Louisiana could easily share more about herself with a person from Hollywood than her own neighbours.
If the federal conglomerate is not above those that comprise it, then no state, county, city, town, neighbourhood or even family is either. That simply renders your comments ;"california is not louisiana is not colorado is not,, " empty words.
Nick_A
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Re: this map...

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:02 pm 874217C5-90BA-4DBF-A16D-0E1198DB1940.jpeg


...is made for sumthin' else, but it'll serve to help me make a point

Nick, you say Liberty cannot be sustained by a secular society caught up in self glorification, greed, selfishness, and ignorance.

I suggest the orange in the map is where you'll find the bulk of your secularists, the red (and mebbe the gray) is where you'll find the rest of us

obviously, I'm simplifyin': truth is, 'murica is a big place...as I've said elsewhere, there's little actual coherence or cohesion in a cultural sense (california is not louisiana is not colorado is not...)...the ties that bind us as a nation are loose (as was intended)

my point: we're not a secular nation cuz we're not solely a secular people...we ought not be judged by what parasites foist up as entertainment any more than we ought to be judged by what members of a powerful, but not omnipotent, minority do globally supposedly on behalf of, or in the name of, 'murica

the flaw in your thinkin' (which I admire, by the way) is this notion of nationhood as somehow bein' above and beyond the folks who actually are the nation, the society, the community
This brings us back to Cuties. Plato used the term metaxu in society. as a middle between Man and God. I am suggesting that the metaxu is losing quality as represented in the arts.

The human psych needs to be nourished by higher ideas. Without it quality which makes liberty possible is lost. What happens when people begin to question? Do we end up producing snowflkes and kids open to destruction? There are real questions but unfortuntely the answers are hidden for one reason or another. So who is responsible to the generations of the future? Who allows them to know "what we have here" in respect to the ideals of America. Who awakens their conscience to feel what is wrong with cuties as society as a whole becomes more corse?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Cuties

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:16 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:05 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:45 pm
Since "porn" derives from the Greek for depictions of prostitutes, any human offered for sale, or offering themselves for sale for the purpose of sex and depicted in any graphic medium can be called pornography.
If a child is offered up for sexual gratification in depictions that is porn, which is morally and legally wrong. If a child is touched then that is rape.
If a depiction of a "dance" is done for the purpose of sex with a view to commercial exploitation then that is "porn."

When they call a dance erotic, then that is "art".
So accepting your definition for the moment, are the dance scenes in Cuties pornographic? If they are, what does it say about humanity willing to entice 11 year olds not fully developed into pornography. Most sense something is wrong with it but cannot put it into words. Who can?
I've not yet seen it.
All things are subjective.
Pornography is in the eye of the beholder.
The criteria I set was twofold.
summarising
1. Sexually arousing
2. Exchange of money
If a person finds them arousing and money has been exchanged (not necessarily to the girl or from the aroused) then it is porn

Since the film is, I assume, trying to point to exploitation, rather than to exploit, the film as such is art, it can become pornographic subjectively to individuals - I would say that is NOT the intention of Netflix.

From the POV of the society that Cuties is depicting, it says that society is f*cked up. It has reached dangerously low levels of moral decay. The risk for Netflix is that it might be inadvertently have put itself in a position to promote this decline. That would depend on how low the audience might have gone in their lack of respect of humanity.
Despite this, it is better to demonstrate a problem rather than pretend it does not exist. Excessive prurience was the strategy of Victorian London which possibly had one of the greatest concentrations of prostitution in history. Whilst the Bourgeoisie covered up their table legs, and the men wore apparel contra onanism at night, others were busy spreading "social diseases" to and fro.
Will this film open up awareness? I hope so.
But a culture that has been in the habit is sexualising children for a very long time is unlikely to address its problems very soon.
Some excellent points. The US, leader of this 'moral decay', has always been notoriously puritanical and hypocritical. Heck, it has only recently allowed women to breasfeed in public while its 'celebrities' flaunt their big, plactic boobs in the the tackiest attire imaginable.
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henry quirk
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Re: Cuties

Post by henry quirk »

So who is responsible to the generations of the future?

us: you, me, him, her...folks of like-mind

we transmit to our children and to those who'll listen and recognize

what the hell else can we do?
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henry quirk
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Re: Cuties

Post by henry quirk »

By your own rubric Louisiana is not even Louisiana, since the individuals that comprise it are not identical to one another, And a Person from Louisiana could easily share more about herself with a person from Hollywood than her own neighbours.

absolutely right: south louisiana isn't north louisiana and new orleans isn't church point

this america so many believe, or are taught to believe, exists is a fiction

there are cultures, many of them; subcultures even, distinctly 'murican (in that they all value liberty) but also distinctly individual and idiosyncratic


If the federal conglomerate is not above those that comprise it, then no state, county, city, town, neighbourhood or even family is either. That simply renders your comments ;"california is not louisiana is not colorado is not,, " empty words.

I can't decypher this: I'm stupid or you constructed poorly

try again, if you like
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Sculptor
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Re: Cuties

Post by Sculptor »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:09 pm.....plactic boobs in the the tackiest attire imaginable.
Please cease and desist
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