Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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Advocate
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Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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False dichotomy aside, i know JBP to be seriously wrong in his fundamentals but he gives plenty of good, honest, practical advice otherwise. The people I've heard stand against him are usually for reasons that are inaccurate and the people i've heard stand for him are basically a cult of personality. What are your thoughts?
KLewchuk
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by KLewchuk »

Advocate wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:44 pm False dichotomy aside, i know JBP to be seriously wrong in his fundamentals but he gives plenty of good, honest, practical advice otherwise. The people I've heard stand against him are usually for reasons that are inaccurate and the people i've heard stand for him are basically a cult of personality. What are your thoughts?
He's written a self-help book that has evidently been valuable for some people. His analysis of neo-marxism in contemporary society and the evils of intersectionality is helpful and he has done good work in pointing out issues in this area.

He tends to try and speak outside his depth (comparative religion, epistemology, economics, etc.) and says things that are inaccurate at best and downright loonie at worst. He also apparently has visions (not dreams, visions) which I find concerning.
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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KLewchuk wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:07 pm
Advocate wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:44 pm False dichotomy aside, i know JBP to be seriously wrong in his fundamentals but he gives plenty of good, honest, practical advice otherwise. The people I've heard stand against him are usually for reasons that are inaccurate and the people i've heard stand for him are basically a cult of personality. What are your thoughts?
He's written a self-help book that has evidently been valuable for some people. His analysis of neo-marxism in contemporary society and the evils of intersectionality is helpful and he has done good work in pointing out issues in this area.

He tends to try and speak outside his depth (comparative religion, epistemology, economics, etc.) and says things that are inaccurate at best and downright loonie at worst. He also apparently has visions (not dreams, visions) which I find concerning.
Where do you draw the looney line? (#bandname)
KLewchuk
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by KLewchuk »

Advocate wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:51 pm
KLewchuk wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:07 pm
Advocate wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:44 pm False dichotomy aside, i know JBP to be seriously wrong in his fundamentals but he gives plenty of good, honest, practical advice otherwise. The people I've heard stand against him are usually for reasons that are inaccurate and the people i've heard stand for him are basically a cult of personality. What are your thoughts?
He's written a self-help book that has evidently been valuable for some people. His analysis of neo-marxism in contemporary society and the evils of intersectionality is helpful and he has done good work in pointing out issues in this area.

He tends to try and speak outside his depth (comparative religion, epistemology, economics, etc.) and says things that are inaccurate at best and downright loonie at worst. He also apparently has visions (not dreams, visions) which I find concerning.
Where do you draw the looney line? (#bandname)
He only eats meat.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:44 pm False dichotomy aside, i know JBP to be seriously wrong in his fundamentals but he gives plenty of good, honest, practical advice otherwise. The people I've heard stand against him are usually for reasons that are inaccurate and the people i've heard stand for him are basically a cult of personality. What are your thoughts?
You are correct. I even agree JP is wrong in some of his fundamentals, thought they might be somewhat different from what you would take issue with. But JP has not attempted, so far as I can discern, to cultivate any cult of personality. He seems rather surprised by his own popularity, and more interested in ideas than in grandstanding.

He has some genuinely helpful, insightful things to say, and some that need critical review. Fair enough.

What's more interesting is the reaction, the incentive for the cult of personality, which has little to do with what JP is arranging, and more to do with the instinctive reaction his audiences are evincing. A lot of people, young people in particular, are finding themselves drawn to the very simple, somewhat paternal and often pointed advice he is giving. So rather than blaming JP for that, we should be asking why the followers are so engaged. What are they getting that they were (quite clearly) desperately lacking in their lives before JP?

And I suggest there might be some obvious candidates for that. For example, he's against male-bashing. He's pro responsibility. He's generally optimistic, but not in a superficial way. He's good at unravelling very complex ideas, and rendering the daunting relatively simple for a public audience. And he's genuinely empathetic.

He's a sort of helpful, kind but resolute paternal figure, in other words. It could well be that men who have fortitude, directness, empathy, moral direction and willingness to take on the big "dragons" are in short supply in our society, and young people are drawn to that. Or it could be particular things in his content: JP has pointed out that talk about "responsibility" is proving very popular.

Any other possibilities?
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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Immanuel Can wrote:
Any other possibilities
The reason why he became so popular in the first place which was his opposition to Bill C I6
Had he not made such a public stand against that then we would not even be discussing him

He was a psychologist for over twenty years before that who both taught it and had his own practice
But he was just an ordinary academic no one outside of it had ever heard of till Bill C I6 came around
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by KLewchuk »

surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Any other possibilities
The reason why he became so popular in the first place which was his opposition to Bill C I6
Had he not made such a public stand against that then we would not even be discussing him

He was a psychologist for over twenty years before that who both taught it and had his own practice
But he was just an ordinary academic no one outside of it had ever heard of till Bill C I6 came around
Mostly true, but he also posted some of his "Bible" lectures and went viral with the religious crowd.
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Any other possibilities
The reason why he became so popular in the first place which was his opposition to Bill C I6
Had he not made such a public stand against that then we would not even be discussing him
Very likely true.

However, C16 was just the launch, the thing that provoked his first being noticed. He's now much more well-known for reasons that have to do with other things. Nobody even mentions C16 anymore.

So I wonder why he continues to be of note, and so celebrated, the quiet period occasioned by his late illness notwithstanding.
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:22 pm
surreptitious57 wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Any other possibilities
The reason why he became so popular in the first place which was his opposition to Bill C I6
Had he not made such a public stand against that then we would not even be discussing him
Very likely true.

However, C16 was just the launch, the thing that provoked his first being noticed. He's now much more well-known for reasons that have to do with other things. Nobody even mentions C16 anymore.

So I wonder why he continues to be of note, and so celebrated, the quiet period occasioned by his late illness notwithstanding.
Maps of Meaning was a good first analysis of a lot of anthropological concepts for a lot of people, but he goes too far in several insidious ways.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Advocate wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:59 pm Maps of Meaning was a good first analysis of a lot of anthropological concepts for a lot of people, but he goes too far in several insidious ways.
Yes, he does. You're quite right. And even if it were perfectly good, it's a much older book, one produced long before JP became famous and celebrated. So we can't say that M of M was the reason he is now being so popular, can we? There must be some other reason...
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by Immanuel Can »

KLewchuk wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:47 pm Mostly true, but he also posted some of his "Bible" lectures and went viral with the religious crowd.
Yes. And the success of those has been as much a surprise to JP as to everyone else. He did not expect the reaction he got.

Do you think the two things are related? Is JP's success now tied to his Biblical lectures, or his quasi-Biblical approach, as in "12 Rules for Life," his new book?
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by KLewchuk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:05 pm
KLewchuk wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:47 pm Mostly true, but he also posted some of his "Bible" lectures and went viral with the religious crowd.
Yes. And the success of those has been as much a surprise to JP as to everyone else. He did not expect the reaction he got.

Do you think the two things are related? Is JP's success now tied to his Biblical lectures, or his quasi-Biblical approach, as in "12 Rules for Life," his new book?
I think it primarily was due the political environment in Canada and C-16. Canada has swung far left (even for Canada). When an articulate professor from UoT pushed back, he got media attention and money started to flow. The Bible lectures flowed from that initial notoriety, I think. His link up with Sam Harris didn't hurt either.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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KLewchuk wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm His link up with Sam Harris didn't hurt either.
He was actually more of an opponent of Sam Harris's view than a proponent, I think we'd have to say. Harris is pretty much a shallow popularizer of Atheism, and he didn't even really understand much of what JP said, I think. You could tell because Harris didn't really take on or address much of what JP said (not that JP got to say much)...rather he just kept talking, and talking, and talking...as Harris tends to do.

One thing you can certainly say about SH...he's not a very good listener.

So I don't think at all he was, as we might say, "borrowing" any fame from Harris. JP was already very famous in his own right long before that interview -- and more celebrated, I think, than Harris, in some ways. But I do think you're right about him somehow having caught the wave of the backlash against Leftist extremism that's swelling up in Canada. It has been quiet, but it's been coming for some time now. Maybe JP's surfing that wave.

But there might be more to it than that, too.
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

Post by KLewchuk »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:18 pm
KLewchuk wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm His link up with Sam Harris didn't hurt either.
He was actually more of an opponent of Sam Harris's view than a proponent, I think we'd have to say. Harris is pretty much a shallow popularizer of Atheism, and he didn't even really understand much of what JP said, I think. You could tell because Harris didn't really take on or address much of what JP said (not that JP got to say much)...rather he just kept talking, and talking, and talking...as Harris tends to do.

One thing you can certainly say about SH...he's not a very good listener.

So I don't think at all he was, as we might say, "borrowing" any fame from Harris. JP was already very famous in his own right long before that interview -- and more celebrated, I think, than Harris, in some ways. But I do think you're right about him somehow having caught the wave of the backlash against Leftist extremism that's swelling up in Canada. It has been quiet, but it's been coming for some time now. Maybe JP's surfing that wave.

But there might be more to it than that, too.
I think many interpreted those interactions consistent with their bias, prejudices and presuppositions. If you liked JP going in, you liked him going out and vice-versa.

Peterson almost died from over-dose of anti-depressives after his wife was diagnosed with cancer.
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Re: Jordan B. Peterson - hero or villain?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:18 pm
KLewchuk wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:09 pm His link up with Sam Harris didn't hurt either.
He was actually more of an opponent of Sam Harris's view than a proponent, I think we'd have to say. Harris is pretty much a shallow popularizer of Atheism, and he didn't even really understand much of what JP said, I think. You could tell because Harris didn't really take on or address much of what JP said (not that JP got to say much)...rather he just kept talking, and talking, and talking...as Harris tends to do.

One thing you can certainly say about SH...he's not a very good listener.

So I don't think at all he was, as we might say, "borrowing" any fame from Harris. JP was already very famous in his own right long before that interview -- and more celebrated, I think, than Harris, in some ways. But I do think you're right about him somehow having caught the wave of the backlash against Leftist extremism that's swelling up in Canada. It has been quiet, but it's been coming for some time now. Maybe JP's surfing that wave.

But there might be more to it than that, too.
Naw. I don't buy that. SH listens quickly, and he's heard most everything coming from across the table a hundred times before. He interrupts to try to keep the focus on topic.
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