Are markets moral?

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Dubious
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Re: Are markets moral?

Post by Dubious »

Markets are parasitical and absolutely nothing to do with moral. Those who succeed best in markets are the trained parasites.
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henry quirk
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RC

Post by henry quirk »

I know what you mean, Henry.The original question was, "Do free markets tend to entice people to moral behavior or do they tend to entice people to immoral behavior?" I've only been pointing out what the nature of a market is.

Here's my (fuller) answer from up-thread...

As I see it: the market is nuthin' but individuals transacting.

The free or open market is nuthin' but free men and women buyin' and sellin'. It's an on-goin' amoral event. Supply & demand. Baby formula and bazookas.

The moderated or controlled market is nuthin' but immoral: individuals are directed to or directed away from transactions by an overseer, their needs, wants, desires, and assessments blunted by those wieldin' the Big Stick. Supply & demand is hobbled. Only approved baby formula and never any bazookas.
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RCSaunders
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Re: RC

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:29 pm The moderated or controlled market is nuthin' but immoral: individuals are directed to or directed away from transactions by an overseer, their needs, wants, desires, and assessments blunted by those wieldin' the Big Stick. Supply & demand is hobbled. Only approved baby formula and never any bazookas.[/i]
Are you kidding? "...never any bazookas?" Arms and munitions are perhaps the largest part of the government controlled market. It used to be called, "the military-industrial complex." You don't hear the phrase much anymore. It's called the aerospace and defense industry today, and it's bigger than ever. Just because you cannot buy one does not mean its not part of the, "controlled," market. It's like drugs. You cannot buy antibiotics, even if you need them, without getting someone else's permission, but they are certainly available in the market to government approved customers.

2019 global military expenditures: 1.92 trillion dollars. That's a pretty big market.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Arms and munitions are perhaps the largest part of the government controlled market.

can I, a private citizen, buy a bazooka?

not in the current controlled market, I can't (not legally, not without jumpin' through a whole whack of hoops)

as I say: Only approved baby formula and never any bazookas

here, read it again...

As I see it: the market is nuthin' but individuals transacting.

The free or open market is nuthin' but free men and women buyin' and sellin'. It's an on-goin' amoral event. Supply & demand. Baby formula and bazookas.

The moderated or controlled market is nuthin' but immoral: individuals are directed to or directed away from transactions by an overseer, their needs, wants, desires, and assessments blunted by those wieldin' the Big Stick. Supply & demand is hobbled. Only approved baby formula and never any bazookas.
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RCSaunders
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Re: RC

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:46 pm Arms and munitions are perhaps the largest part of the government controlled market.

can I, a private citizen, buy a bazooka?

not in the current controlled market, ...
That's right!

But you were talking about, "The moderated or controlled market ..." as the market you could buy, "only approved baby formula and never any bazookas." It is only in the controlled market you can buy bazookas (with the exception of some so-called "black" markets, of course).

And on that note, I thoroughly approve of smuggling, money laundering, and black markets which are about the only free markets left in this world. (The only "dirty," money is money Government can extort or steal from others, which is why they don't want it cleansed.)
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henry quirk
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Re: Are markets moral?

Post by henry quirk »

It is only in the controlled market you can buy bazookas (with the exception of some so-called "black" markets, of course).

no

in the controlled market only the overseer (the gov) or its designees can buy, own, the bazooka

only in the free or open market can I buy, own, use, one

one more time, with highlights and additions...


As I see it: the market is nuthin' but individuals transacting.

The free or open market is nuthin' but free men and women buyin' and sellin'. It's an on-goin' amoral event. Supply & demand. Baby formula and bazookas (for everyone, anyone, if they can meet the price).

The moderated or controlled market is nuthin' but immoral: individuals are directed to or directed away from transactions by an overseer, their needs, wants, desires, and assessments blunted by those wieldin' the Big Stick. Supply & demand is hobbled. Only approved baby formula and never any bazookas (for the lil people).
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RCSaunders
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Re: Are markets moral?

Post by RCSaunders »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:20 pm It is only in the controlled market you can buy bazookas (with the exception of some so-called "black" markets, of course).

no

in the controlled market only the overseer (the gov) or its designees can buy, own, the bazooka
That's what I mean, Henry. I didn't mean, "you," personally, could buy a bazooka, I mean anyone who can buy one can only buy one in the controlled market.
henry quirk wrote: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:20 pm only in the free or open market can I buy, own, use, one
You mean, "you," personally could only buy one if it were available in a free market, right?

I don't disagree with any of that.

There is no such thing as a totally free unregulated market in this world, with the possible exception of some local and extremely limited ones. Any market that operates within the scope of government (publicly) is totally regulated. The closest thing to a free market must operate outside of government recognition or control--the dreaded, "black market."
Last edited by RCSaunders on Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: Are markets moral?

Post by Skepdick »

Watching the discussion unfold, I am actually puzzled by everyone's narrow conception of what "the market" is. I am even more puzzled that nobody views markets as self-organizing systems.

And finally, I am puzzled by perspectives which see market regulators as some sort of opposing force to the "free market" and not as a direct product of "the market" itself in attempts to self-regulate.

If self-organising/self-regulating markets cannot produce moral outcomes, then nothing can.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Are markets moral?

Post by RCSaunders »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:28 pm Watching the discussion unfold, I am actually puzzled by everyone's narrow conception of what "the market" is. I am even more puzzled that nobody views markets as self-organizing systems.

And finally, I am puzzled by perspectives which see market regulators as some sort of opposing force to the "free market" and not as a direct product of "the market" itself in attempts to self-regulate.

If self-organising/self-regulating markets cannot produce moral outcomes, then nothing can.
A market will and does regulate itself so long as some outside force, like government regulators, do not interfere in that self-regulation.
Skepdick
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Re: Are markets moral?

Post by Skepdick »

RCSaunders wrote: Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:29 pm A market will and does regulate itself so long as some outside force, like government regulators, do not interfere in that self-regulation.
You just can't resist thinking in antithetical dichotomies/categories, eh? I guess, it's not your fault - philosophy sure encourages this dumb way of thinking!

All human interaction is part of the market.

"Government regulators" are precisely the self-regulation mechanism the market produced. If you hate regulators so much - thank the "free market" for satisfying the demand for regulation.
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