Why is abortion necessary?

[mickthinks]

There is an infinity of arguments I could spend time thinking about, so I necessarily must reject some, often after most cursory examination.

When I have people who simultaneously decry "mass slaughter" of abortion, without seeming to realize that spontaneous miscarriages are at least as frequent - and who also support torture and wars of agression (e.g. the American religious right) - it is obvious that they are either hypocrites or stupid (or both) - and thus unlikely to present a philosophically interesting argument.

Okay, you are using a blanket ad hominem argument against the position taken up by your political opponents. Politicians do this because it works, which is to say ad homs often win votes. But philosophers know they are are fallacious, which is to say ad homs can never settle a philosophical question.

Which are you engaged in here, Gustaf - politicking or philosophical enquiry?

[Eran]

Gustaf,
I would add that there is a huge moral difference between accidental and purposeful killings.

Would you say that condemning a murderer is hypocritical because of the thousands of people who die in car accidents every year?

[chaz wyman]

I wrote:

I may have a moral obligation to sustain another person's life, but absent a prior commitment, I cannot morally be forced to do so.

Of course I can legally be forced to do anything. The law doesn't make an act moral or immoral.

The hypocratic oath is such a commitment

For the purpose of this discussion, I think there is a moral analogy between forcing a doctor to continue to work, against his will, to facilitate the savings of life, and forcing a pregnant woman, against her will, to continue to carry a foetus to term. Of course if it an 8 month-old foetus, abortion SHOULD be illegal as an equivalent of murder. Inducing premature birth, on the other hand, is within the rights of the mother (even if it increases the risk to the life of the baby).

A new born baby has a right not to be killed. I personally don't believe any person should be FORCED to care for that baby.

Then you have a contradiction, as failure to care will lead to the death of the child

Obviously, in any civilized society, many people would be very happy to, so the issue is not really relevant.

What if it had two heads?

There is a world of difference between meeting obligations under a contract and being forced without prior agreement.

There is a tacit contract for a doctor to preserve life where he can, don't you think?

Thus, for example, if the pregnant woman in question is a surrogate mother who signed a contract to carry the baby to term, an abortion would be a breach of contract, and thus morally punishable.

I do not think it would be fair to morally punish. it might be legally punishable. But them slavery is illegal and such a contract might be deemed illegal.



[/quote]

[Eran]

I don't see how the hypocratic oath, made in ceremonial fashion, as a legal requirement before being allowed to practice medicine, could be translated to a responsibility a Doctor has towards the foetus.

The appropriate analogy is between that Doctor, and a police officer asked to evict a squatter. The foetus, under the circumstances, is an unwelcome squatter within its mother's womb. While it may have a right not to be killed, it has no right to demand nourishment from an unwilling person, even if that person is its mother.

The Doctor is merely there to facilitate a safe eviction.

Then you have a contradiction, as failure to care will lead to the death of the child

No contradiction. There is a huge difference, morally, between actively causing somebody's death through an assault on their body or property, and between indirectly bringing about somebody's death due to a refusal to take action that might have saved their lives, but which they had no right to insist on your providing.

Thus, murdering a homeless person is not the same as refusing them hospitality in your home, even if they then end up freezing to death.

[chaz wyman]

I don't see how the hypocratic oath, made in ceremonial fashion, as a legal requirement before being allowed to practice medicine, could be translated to a responsibility a Doctor has towards the foetus.

The appropriate analogy is between that Doctor, and a police officer asked to evict a squatter. The foetus, under the circumstances, is an unwelcome squatter within its mother's womb. While it may have a right not to be killed, it has no right to demand nourishment from an unwilling person, even if that person is its mother.

The Doctor is merely there to facilitate a safe eviction.

Then you have a contradiction, as failure to care will lead to the death of the child

No contradiction. There is a huge difference, morally, between actively causing somebody's death through an assault on their body or property, and between indirectly bringing about somebody's death due to a refusal to take action that might have saved their lives, but which they had no right to insist on your providing.

Such is not the case with a doctor who has a responsibility beyond the ordinary, and whose inaction would be morally wrong, by their own standards.

An abortion is not a simple eviction - not a single doctor on earth would ever agree with you. An abortion is not an act of inaction by the 'mother' but a surgical intervention that doctors do not perform as some sort of bailiff.

Your analogy is frightfully insensitive and ridiculously inappropriate.





Thus, murdering a homeless person is not the same as refusing them hospitality in your home, even if they then end up freezing to death.

[Eran]

Morally, you are correct. There is a huge difference. The legal analysis, however, is the same.

[Seer Travis Truman]

Since we are having a thread or two about abortion, so I thought I would add an extra one.
I was talking to a Pakistani colleague some time ago, and he was puzzled as to why abortion is even an issue in Canada.

The answer is that abortion is about assuaging the deep-seated murderous rage and frustrations of adult female citizen-slave often possess as the result of being raised by an utterly insane and malevolent society.

Abortion uses the womb-trapped child as a poison-container. It is literally sacrificed in order to make homicidally enraged females feel better about themselves.

Here are four top-quality links about the subject :

http://www.truthmedia.8k.com (read about TR and poison containers)
http://psychohistory.com
http://www.truthmedia.8k.com/Abortion.html
http://www.truthmedia.8k.com/MediaStori ... ity38.html

I had no answer for him, beyond telling him that just as Pakistani society is fucked up in its own way, our society is just as fucked up, only in a different way.

Your society is even more screwed up than Pakistani society.

[Gustaf]

Gustaf,
I would add that there is a huge moral difference between accidental and purposeful killings.

Would you say that condemning a murderer is hypocritical because of the thousands of people who die in car accidents every year?

Not at all.

But someone who is in favour of spending resources to fight violent crime, even if the same resources would save more lives if spent on car accident prevention may well be hypocritical.

There is a moral difference between accidental and purposeful killing.

But there is no moral difference between preventing an accidental and purposeful killing. (Ceteris paribus, of course.)

[HexHammer]

In Canada both parents are usually busy working, whilst in Pakistan only the man is busy working and the woman looks after the children, and 1 child more in the equation wouldn't matter much, where in Canada 1 child more would pose a great economical challenge, time and attention.

[MrsD]

Caitlin Moran made an interesting point in her newish book about abortion. She explained that she had an abortion in 2007 after having 2 children, simply because she did not want another child. She goes on to argue that as the physical body can at times decide not to have a child (as in a miscarriage), it was her mind that decided that she could not have this child and that the mind is just as much part of her as the physical actions the body performs.

Just an interesting point. She did however say that she doesn't support multiple abortions, which would in essence mean this argument wouldn't work universally...

[chaz wyman]

Caitlin Moran made an interesting point in her newish book about abortion. She explained that she had an abortion in 2007 after having 2 children, simply because she did not want another child. She goes on to argue that as the physical body can at times decide not to have a child (as in a miscarriage), it was her mind that decided that she could not have this child and that the mind is just as much part of her as the physical actions the body performs.

Just an interesting point. She did however say that she doesn't support multiple abortions, which would in essence mean this argument wouldn't work universally...

I fully support the woman's right to choose. But I think it unacceptable that abortion is used as a belated form of contraception.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/ ... t-abortion
Repeat abortion figures are quite horrifying.
There is nothing more sad than an unwanted child, but I can't help but reel with horror at women having second, and third abortions' some even taking more.
"around 3,800 women have had four or more abortions, and that about a third of all last year's 195,296 terminations in England and Wales were repeat abortions."
If this were a disease it would be described as an epidemic.

[The Voice of Time]

This happened in Northern Ireland recently where abortion is illegal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEhRvfF ... re=g-all-u

[Kayla]

If this were a disease it would be described as an epidemic.

in part this is because a lot of adults are insane

in my neck of the woods a minor cannot get a prescription for the pill without parental consent

my mother - who despite being a baptist and a republican is not completely insane - told me that although it is best to wait until marriage she will give her consent if i ask - and told me where to find condoms in the medicine cabinet

but many of my peers have parents who are completely insane

so we have people who get used to treating abortion as plan b (plan a being luck)

and even republican baptist parents - at least from relatively affluent families - will usually get abortions for their daughters - yes hypocricy is often a way of life in my neck of the woods

[KaydeeDID88]

i feel as if abortion is not necessary though it is the right of a woman to make... its her right to do what she wants with her body and no one can tell her different, though if the a male is involved he too should have say what happens to that unborn child.

[John K]

i feel as if abortion is not necessary though it is the right of a woman to make... its her right to do what she wants with her body and no one can tell her different, though if the a male is involved he too should have say what happens to that unborn child.

Which is it?