Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

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Belinda
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Re: Lace

Post by Belinda »

henry quirk wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:21 pm Ok, educate me: if what a pregnant woman carries is not 'person', not 'meat', then what?
For most foetuses there is the potential to be a human person. As most fields sown with corn have the potential to be corn harvests.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Greta wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:40 pm ... universal health that you both politically correctly oppose.
You obviously never read my comments on that. You're wrong. Henry and I are a little different on this, but we both know that UHC is complicated.

I don't per se oppose it. I've got it. I just realize that I'm taxed to death because I have it. And that's a bad effect of a good thing. Unfortunately, there's just no way that UHC is free...it's punishingly expensive. And that's the truth.

So whether or not you advocate it, you'd better realize how you're going to pay for it. That's all I say.

And as for reasoning, I've got way more knowledge about that subject than you have, clearly. Apparently, you've never lived with UHC. I have. And I've given good reasons previously: you just weren't paying attention then.
Obviously third trimester is not under debate.
Why is that "obvious"?

Third trimester abortions are performed in Canada and Europe quite routinely, and In Virginia the governor apparently thinks even infanticide is okay. It looks to me like you can't ignore that one at all.
The first trimester foetus is in no way a "child".
And your proof is...?
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:38 pmMoreover, you've skipped the point that the child, if not aborted, will definitely become a full adult in every sense that your putative "adult woman" is. So that's one heck of an oversight.
Who cares?
Clearly, you don't. I can see that much. But I do: babies are human persons.
Why do you approve of sending troops to the middle east
Who said I did? It wasn't me.

You really have to stop seeing people as stereotypes. You obviously don't know what I think at all. You're just parroting the assumptions you have about some "alt-right" group or something else you've cooked up in your head.
You pretend to take the rhetorical high road...
Preventing infanticide IS the high road. Clearly, murdering children is not. So "pretend" is a poor coinage.
And yes, your main aim is clearly to control women.
Hilarious.

No, I couldn't care less about controlling women. Women have many choices, including responsible reproductive practices, moral behaviour, good judgment, contraception, and taking responsibility for their own actions, like good adults do. I have zero interest in depriving them of any of their choices.

But murdering children is not a "choice." It's a wicked act performed to cover up for bad "choices" already made. That's the truth, and we all know it. I genuinely believe that's true, no matter what abortion-advocates profess. I've never met a one that did not know, deep in her heart, that what she had done was profoundly wrong, and didn't manifest it with rage when challenged.

But healing from abortion means facing the truth. There is no freedom without truth -- without realizing just how awful that act is, and hating it, repenting of it and asking God's forgiveness. There's no other way to be free of that guilt with which all abortionists suffer. And I would like to see all pro-abortion women freed from their guilt, and all their children henceforth living.

Now, what have you got against that?
Skepdick
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:41 pm And I would like to see all pro-abortion women freed from their guilt, and all their children henceforth living.
I would like some clarity on that. Would you like to just SEE it, or are you also happy to FINANCE it?

Because all you've offered so far is pro-life arguments, yet zero economic policy to subsidise foster homes and single mothers.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:41 pm And I would like to see all pro-abortion women freed from their guilt, and all their children henceforth living.
I would like some clarity on that. Would you like to just SEE it, or are you also happy to FINANCE it?
Do you mean, "Are you willing to pay to feed and raise the baby?"

Absolutely. I'll even go beyond that: education, medicine, parenting, time-investment, provision of play, providing an example, moral and spiritual guidance, help with self-image, vacations, and care and love, all the way into adulthood.

For every baby I create.

That's my choice, and I have to live with the consequences of all my choices and not whine or look to others to take up the slack for me. That's what grown people who are behaving responsibly do.
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henry quirk
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Lace

Post by henry quirk »

"Organic substance that is neither person nor meat"

A substance that's organic. That means nuthin'. A jar of dog spit is 'organic substance'. The goo I found next to the cat's food dish is probably an 'organic substance'.

No, very clearly, what a pregnant woman carries is 'human'. The question is: is it human meat or a human being.
Skepdick
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:37 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:41 pm And I would like to see all pro-abortion women freed from their guilt, and all their children henceforth living.
I would like some clarity on that. Would you like to just SEE it, or are you also happy to FINANCE it?
Do you mean, "Are you willing to pay to feed and raise the baby?"

Absolutely. I'll even go beyond that: education, medicine, parenting, time-investment, provision of play, providing an example, moral and spiritual guidance, help with self-image, vacations, and care and love, all the way into adulthood.

For every baby I create.
That's a very long-winded way of saying 'No'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:37 pm That's my choice
Yeah... That's what women say.
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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henry quirk
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Dub

Post by henry quirk »

Really, guy, if this thread bothers you, if my 'simplistic' approach bothers you, then go play in another thread. There are dozens of 'em, all waitin' on you to drop your wisdom into 'em. There's no reason at all for you to waste a jot of your time in this thread, with me and my silly questions.
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henry quirk
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skepdick

Post by henry quirk »

"are you also happy to FINANCE it?"

Here, in America, taxpayers already finance a whole whack of 'entitlements' including foster homes and single mothers.

Despite all the money that gets thrown at various problems, the problems persist and worsen.

Seems to me: we're focusing on the wrong end of things (band aids for deep wounds instead of preventing the wounds in the first place).
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-1-
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by -1- »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:42 pm For every baby I create.

That's my choice, and I have to live with the consequences of all my choices
That's your CHOICE, you little darkness-for-brain. You said it: it's your choice. You are CHOOSING to do this or that or the other thing.

Why do you deny others the same right? You seemed to have been an egalitarian up to now, but now all of a sudden declare "do as I say, not as you do."

IF YOU ARE ENTITLED TO A CHOICE TO CREATE A HUMAN SOUL, WHY DON'T OTHERS HAVE THE SAME ENTITLEMENT?

You said you care for every BABY you create.

What's a baby? A newborn child up to about two or three years, maybe even up to four years of age.

An EMBRIO is not A BABY. A zygote is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby.

You meddling, two-faced, judgmental, intolerant little darkness-for-brain.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:37 pm For every baby I create.
That's a very long-winded way of saying 'No'.
If you think so, then your question wasn't clear.

Did you want to ask, "Will you pay for the immorality and negligence of others?"

Answer: sometimes. I will happily contribute to the relief of victims. But no, I will not aid and abet the abortion culture.
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henry quirk
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-1-

Post by henry quirk »

"IF YOU ARE ENTITLED TO A CHOICE TO CREATE A HUMAN SOUL, WHY DON'T OTHERS HAVE THE SAME ENTITLEMENT?"

The question, recast: I can (choose to) make a baby, so why can't I (choose to) kill it?
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Re: skepdick

Post by -1- »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:49 pm Seems to me: we're focusing on the wrong end of things (band aids for deep wounds instead of preventing the wounds in the first place).
Careful now, darkness-for-brains. The other members in your NRA local might not view this very favourably.
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henry quirk
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-I-

Post by henry quirk »

I'm not a member of the NRA.

Try again.
Skepdick
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Skepdick »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:55 pm
Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:42 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:37 pm For every baby I create.
That's a very long-winded way of saying 'No'.
If you think so, then your question wasn't clear.

Did you want to ask, "Will you pay for the immorality and negligence of others?"

Answer: sometimes. I will happily contribute to the relief of victims. But no, I will not aid and abet the abortion culture.
The question was very clear.

You dodged it rather skilfully.
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: -1-

Post by -1- »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:55 pm "IF YOU ARE ENTITLED TO A CHOICE TO CREATE A HUMAN SOUL, WHY DON'T OTHERS HAVE THE SAME ENTITLEMENT?"

The question, recast: I can (choose to) make a baby, so why can't I (choose to) kill it?
You sound like you switched sides and now you condone abortions.

Very well, brother. I am glad we could finally convince you to see the wrongfulness of your views.

Except we are not killing babies; we are aborting fetii. BIG difference, but with your darkness in the brain you can't get over that threshold of thinking step.
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