An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

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prof
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by prof » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:56 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:43 pm
"Why work if you make more money at home?" many will say, and due to their inability to create anything (whether lack of drive, skill, or both) people will stagnate.
The factual evidence shows that this has not turned out to be the case. What has happened in on-the-ground actual UBI experiments is that people continue to work, but less at jobs they hate, and more in jobs and projects that they consider to be interesting. 8)

:) :)

The beauty of it is that over all productivity increases in the regions where the experiments have been tried. Do the research yourself and you will discover how it works out and why a Universal Basic Income is necessary.

http://basicincome.org/news/2017/11/rep ... onference/

http://basicincome.org/news/category/features/blogs/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHOZCy ... e=youtu.be
.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:33 pm

prof wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:56 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:43 pm
"Why work if you make more money at home?" many will say, and due to their inability to create anything (whether lack of drive, skill, or both) people will stagnate.
The factual evidence shows that this has not turned out to be the case. What has happened in on-the-ground actual UBI experiments is that people continue to work, but less at jobs they hate, and more in jobs and projects that they consider to be interesting. 8)

:) :)

The beauty of it is that over all productivity increases in the regions where the experiments have been tried. Do the research yourself and you will discover how it works out and why a Universal Basic Income is necessary.

http://basicincome.org/news/2017/11/rep ... onference/

http://basicincome.org/news/category/features/blogs/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHOZCy ... e=youtu.be
.
I understand why it is "necessary", there are not enough jobs out there and the ones that do exist are either temporary or in an extreme environment people cannot last long in.

What "activities" do you mean and what age groups are associated with them?

Video games and robot making for the millenials? Woodcraft, stonecraft, glass making for boomers?

prof
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by prof » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:00 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Prof wrote: "What has happened in on-the-ground actual Universal Basic Income [UBI] experiments is that people continue to work, but less at jobs they hate, and more in jobs and projects that they consider to be interesting. 8)

:) :)

"The beauty of it is that over all productivity increases in the regions where the experiments have been tried. Do the research yourself and you will discover how it works out and why a Universal Basic Income is necessary."

http://basicincome.org/news/category/features/blogs/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHOZCy ... e=youtu.be

I understand why it is "necessary", there are not enough jobs out there and the ones that do exist are either temporary or in an extreme environment people cannot last long in.

Very true.


What "activities" do you mean and what age groups are associated with them?

Video games and robot making for the millenials? Woodcraft, stonecraft, glass making for boomers?
I did not in my writing use the word "activities", so who are you quoting when you say that?

What is wrong with robot making, woodcraft, stonecraft, and glass making? Eventually, with enough of the right kind of practice at crafting them, these may provide objects of art for others to appreciate.

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:01 am

prof wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:00 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Prof wrote: "What has happened in on-the-ground actual Universal Basic Income [UBI] experiments is that people continue to work, but less at jobs they hate, and more in jobs and projects that they consider to be interesting. 8)

:) :)

"The beauty of it is that over all productivity increases in the regions where the experiments have been tried. Do the research yourself and you will discover how it works out and why a Universal Basic Income is necessary."

http://basicincome.org/news/category/features/blogs/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHOZCy ... e=youtu.be

I understand why it is "necessary", there are not enough jobs out there and the ones that do exist are either temporary or in an extreme environment people cannot last long in.

Very true.


What "activities" do you mean and what age groups are associated with them?

Video games and robot making for the millenials? Woodcraft, stonecraft, glass making for boomers?
I did not in my writing use the word "activities", so who are you quoting when you say that?

I probably should have underlined it..."x" is meant also for emphasis.

What is wrong with robot making, woodcraft, stonecraft, and glass making?

Nothing, it just seems contradictory to promote a technological system where people don't have to work but they are stuck doing the same work their ancestors did just to avoid boredom.

It is equivalent to a joke I heard:

A Harvard business man walks up to a fisherman and explains to him how to increase his fishing fleet.
The fisherman nods and then asks what to do next.
The Harvard business man explains to him that he could then turn the fleet into a massive fishing business.
The fisherman nods and then asks what to do next.
The Harvard business man explains to him that he could then sell the massive fishing business and make a massive amount of money.
The fisherman nods and then asks what to do next.
The Harvard business man explains to him that he could then retire and spend the rest of his days by the ocean and fish.



Eventually, with enough of the right kind of practice at crafting them, these may provide objects of art for others to appreciate.


I doubt anyone will appreciate them in all frankness. The reason for this is that people will find no necessity in appreciate anything as they will expect everything to be handed to them.

The basic income is coming, I am not arguing that is not. However it will not solve anything. The simply truth is that the technological society the founded the necessity of Universal Income, by its very nature is designed to eradicate human labor. Necessity cannot be seperated from success, and when people lose the "necessity" of what they do they will find very little purpose in what they are doing...as what they are doing is "not necessary".

It is a system based on perpetual masturbation.

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by prof » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:42 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:01 am
prof wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:00 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:33 pm

Prof wrote: "What has happened in on-the-ground actual Universal Basic Income [UBI] experiments is that people continue to work, but less at jobs they hate, and more in jobs and projects that they consider to be interesting. 8)

:) :)

"The beauty of it is that over all productivity increases in the regions where the experiments have been tried. Do the research yourself and you will discover how it works out and why a Universal Basic Income is necessary."

http://basicincome.org/news/category/features/blogs/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHOZCy ... e=youtu.be


I understand why it is "necessary", there are not enough jobs out there and the ones that do exist are either temporary or in an extreme environment people cannot last long in.


This - the above-quoted - makes sense. Yes you do understand the necessity that is motivating this reform.



Eodnhoj7 wrote: Nothing {is wrong with these hobbies and crafts.}

OK.

Eodnhoj7 wrote: it just seems contradictory to promote a technological system where people don't have to work but they are stuck doing the same work their ancestors did just to avoid boredom.


IMHO In contrast, these remarks of yours makes no sense . ....at least not to me.
Going beyond a mere UBI grant to each citizen of $7000 a year (at first), I will argue that even a resource-based economy - one which provides folks with some basics of life - one which would relieve extreme poverty by lowering the cost [until it is practically-free] of some simple, plain standard garb (for one's clothing needs); and would in addition offer a modular home for shelter; and provide, say, $2700 a month for food - would NOT drive out from our lives the urge to invent, to innovate, to upgrade and improve upon existing technologies. Nor would it kill our incentive to create poetry, literature, or non-fiction prose!!!


And every now and then a Richard Branson, a Jeff Bezos, an Elon Musk, an Einstein would come along, and perhaps create so much wealth as to carry along society for the equivalent of hundreds of others' contribution to the economy. :wink:


What do the rest of you applied-ethicists think? Will all labor disappear because of a UBI grant?

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:03 pm

prof wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:42 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:01 am
prof wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:00 pm


This - the above-quoted - makes sense. Yes you do understand the necessity that is motivating this reform.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Nothing {is wrong with these hobbies and crafts.}
OK.
Eodnhoj7 wrote: it just seems contradictory to promote a technological system where people don't have to work but they are stuck doing the same work their ancestors did just to avoid boredom.
IMHO In contrast, these remarks of yours makes no sense . ....at least not to me.
Going beyond a mere UBI grant to each citizen of $7000 a year (at first), I will argue that even a resource-based economy - one which provides folks with some basics of life - one which would relieve extreme poverty by lowering the cost [until it is practically-free] of some simple, plain standard garb (for one's clothing needs); and would in addition offer a modular home for shelter; and provide, say, $2700 a month for food - would NOT drive out from our lives the urge to invent, to innovate, to upgrade and improve upon existing technologies. Nor would it kill our incentive to create poetry, literature, or non-fiction prose!!!


Any poetry, literature or non-fiction that contained any value within the course of human civilization was written in blood. The universal basic income is coming not because mankind needs it but because he is being eliminated and has not place within civilization. The same "arts and crafts" that you argue give man meaning, he as done for millennia and been paid for.

The Harvard Professor stays the same because the system itself is a contradiction.

If we look at the nature of "play" and "entertainment", whether in children or adults, it breaks down to an emulation of some form of "work". Whether it be games revolving around war and building for men, house for women, the majority of leisure activity results as a mirroring of some work environment. Even professional sports such as basketball and football instill maneuvering strategies similar to those employed in warfare.

Leisure and rest is simply the passive observation of some form of work that man is by nature inclined towards.

The universal basic income does not account for long term results as it does not put to question what happens sociologically a generation or two after it is started. Work provides both meaning in a practical and social level and when that "meaning" is eradicated people will resort to deep savagery in one respect while the other half will simply "give up" in the form of a grazing lifestyle.

The standards required for one to be "applicable" to a universal income will be another problem, one most likely restrictive of human rights. Limits on speech, government sanctioned birth control, microchip tagging, etc. will be place in such a manner mankind might as well be reduced to cattle. I

Considering art is a form of speech, and seems to be the last resort argument as to the nature of meaning under such a system, it will have to be by law "regulated" as it will become a "language" in itself. All systems manifest a thesis and antithesis, just because the government is handing out free money, don't expect everyone receiving it to be grateful. People will rebel over the course of time, through art, and government censorship will increase.

In order for this system to exist, a move towards digital currency will be one of the required prerequisites considering money will have to be "pulled" from thin air. Considering the majority of the work, of any real value, is done through machinery...this machinery is justified only if people "consume". People only "consume" if they have money, they have money if they work.

However the machinery is not only taking away people's jobs but creating a population imbalance at the same time in a different respect...so for a multitude of reasons their is not enough work. Add in the fact that the average pay goes down, as human labor is cheapened, and you have a third variable.

The universal basic income only works if some elite cast literal "just makes up" the money, and if that is the case then the universal basic income will be the start of a deeper and darker "feudal system"...one which mankind will have no equal too in the course of its history. The rules will just be "made" up.

Modern ethics is a contradiction that must be erased from the history books, it is simply irrational by its own foundations...which do not exist.


And every now and then a Richard Branson, a Jeff Bezos, an Elon Musk, an Einstein would come along, and perhaps create so much wealth as to carry along society for the equivalent of hundreds of others' contribution to the economy. :wink:

What wealth creation exactly are you talking about? That is a moot point as we move towards a digital currency under a technocratic society.

People throw around "Einstein" or "Musk" like their names have some sort of "value", but if you ask the average person on the street what these people "did", most could barely elaborate past the word "smart" or "inventive". Ask them to "expound" on that point and most could not give an answer.



What do the rest of you applied-ethicists think? Will all labor disappear because of a UBI grant?

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by prof » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:50 am

The problem (that motivates a proposal such as the UBI) is lack of quality jobs, that is, jobs paying a decent living wage. There are some jobs available, but they are either in service industries that pay a wage inadequate to support a middle-class lifestyle; or they are highly-technical and require advanced training - which takes some time to learn, but which will not pay much of anything during the training period.
Many of the workers displaced today used to make $20 an hour; so they feel deeply the loss.

In Germany, during The Great Recession, when business was slow, employers gave their entire staff a reduction in hours they could work; yet they kept workers on - because they cared about people. Here in the USA those good workers would have been laid-off (or dismissed) "to cut costs." When times got better, the German businesses, for several reasons, were glad they had carried these fine employees along.
The managers did not have to seek out and hire workers qualified to fit into their company workforce, since they already had them there.

Do you have a better solution to offer than the UBI for the problem of worker displacement by Artificial Intelligence, robotics, or automation?

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by -1- » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:09 am

prof wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:50 am
Do you have a better solution to offer than the UBI for the problem of worker displacement by Artificial Intelligence, robotics, or automation?
Double... nay, triple the UBI payable amount. Give double of the triple for December, so Xmas is covered. Legalize fat tissue transplants and eyebrow thickening. Get rid of Hip-Hop and RAP in fast-moving scenes in movies. and replace it with techno. Bring back the Chocolate Milk Shake. Find a cure for AIDS.

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 am

prof wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:50 am
The problem (that motivates a proposal such as the UBI) is lack of quality jobs, that is, jobs paying a decent living wage. There are some jobs available, but they are either in service industries that pay a wage inadequate to support a middle-class lifestyle; or they are highly-technical and require advanced training - which takes some time to learn, but which will not pay much of anything during the training period.
Many of the workers displaced today used to make $20 an hour; so they feel deeply the loss.

In Germany, during The Great Recession, when business was slow, employers gave their entire staff a reduction in hours they could work; yet they kept workers on - because they cared about people. Here in the USA those good workers would have been laid-off (or dismissed) "to cut costs." When times got better, the German businesses, for several reasons, were glad they had carried these fine employees along.
The managers did not have to seek out and hire workers qualified to fit into their company workforce, since they already had them there.

Oh, I understand you point perfectly as to why it is coming. I agree with you a hundred percent, and probably could expand a few points.

Do you have a better solution to offer than the UBI for the problem of worker displacement by Artificial Intelligence, robotics, or automation?
Yes, perpetual never ending war. Institutionalized ritual sacrifice. Starvation.

The truth is we create AI/Tech/Industry/etc because not only it provides an efficient means to provide what we want, but it we do it because people do not like people....we find eachother boring because everything is relative to the "I"....and to question the "I" is to blaspheme.

AI/Tech/Industry/etc. is about getting rid of the human condition and replacing it with...."whatever". And "whatever" is the "word" to use because that is exactly what it is, a culture base around distraction unto death. Progress is about moving towards point zero.

Nothing more, transcendance and falling in a bottomless abyss both feel as if one is flying. The only difference is whether one closes their eyes....and that is what the modern world is about...closing your eyes.

People eat people, it is what this civilization is about. People are not honest with themselves about it, because they are hypocrites. Turn on the television or any social media device you will see three fluids everyone is transferring: Blood, sweat and semen. People hunger...and then they eat eachother in various grades.

The only thing industrial civilization did was give full vent to man's animal impulses. Discipline, virtue, community.... these are morals for old dead men noone remembers. What people want to do is eat and have fun and play.

So give them what they want in full measure. Furthermore, we need to advance feminism further in order to do this. Women are nurturers by nature, and this civilization does not need the hard word of men any more. Put women in charge, it will be like putting them back in the kitchen again. They won't be needed except to run things....like clerk work...plus their inherent morally relativistic nature will allow us to justify all our actions without consequence.

Men can do what they want, and the women can brag about being empowered...or whatever we tell them that they believe they feel.

Then when people feel they get bored, get together and pick a victim and sacrifice him or her. We will get a cartharsis out of it...and it will be another story to tell and convince ourself how great we are.

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