An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

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prof
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An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by prof » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:40 am

Some new information has come to my attention on this intriguing policy proposal, now being implemented on a large-scale in both India and Kenya.
See these relevant comments and discussions:

n Universal Basic Income

http://www.siia.net/blog/index/Post/708 ... -is-Coming

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/01/ ... sic-income

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/03/ ... sic-income

http://fortune.com/2017/09/03/universal ... omy-study/

I see UBI - or generalized Social Security - as a good policy not so much as a way to make a dent in poverty, but as a way to provide work that a person is passionate about - rather than so very-many people today working at jobs they hate. See especially the section on motivation in that rather-thorough World Economic Forum paper - {second article listed above.}

Also the fact that skil-training for new tech is not keeping pace with the rate of job-displacement caused by automation and robotics.

Also the fact that today 8 living men have the same amount of wealth as that of a total of 6.3 billion people, thus indicating massive inequality and the problems it generates.

Your comments and analyses are welcome!

prof
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by prof » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:56 am

.
If you want to do your own research on the topic, see Wikipedia,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

and also click on each of the links in this excellent summary HERE;

http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/univ ... sic-income

Your comments and analyses are welcome!

EchoesOfTheHorizon
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by EchoesOfTheHorizon » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:01 am

Not for it, shows a general disregard for the necessity of a society to generate actual wealth first before deciding how to blow it, by taking a big chunk of the workforce out of the labor market. Great way to starve to population and impoverish the state, fail to pay back national loans, and invite invasion.

We use a food stamp program in the US, mostly to stop people from having to turn to crime, like ambushing people on the road and taking their money, just to survive. We have social security for those who really shouldn't and generally can't really work any more. Some can, but it is increasingly obvious most can't after a certain point when health degrades.

I'm not too thrilled about a ivy tower plan by people who have no contact with reality or the larger society as a whole to give out grandiose theories of cash slip and slides, that everyone can abandon their jobs and pursue being a artist or climb Mount Denali, becuass now there will be no repercussions.

Bad enough rich kids here in the states take a year off to tour Europe, and then come back, take a worthless degree, and proceed to do nothing, now people will take off decades, tour nothing but weed, weed, and more weed, and paint atrociously while quoting on occasion Nietzsche. That's best case scenario if we magically discover like.... a massive gold mine under the treasury department and can use it to convince everyone else in the world to work for us, or build those replicators from Star Trek that just make stuff from the air.

This isn't some new theory on the cutting edge of economics, unifying socialism with capitalism, making the world a better place, etc.... it is a really old theory, and we all have chipped in on it, because we all have a lazy friend or relative who more or less never work, but manages to keep a place to live (even if it is just your couch), eats whatever they can get, and just doesn't ever do anything but sit on their butt. That's been going on forever, and to be honest, in terms of population wide dispersion of such people.... I think we already peaked a while ago demographics wise. You can have only so many dependent idlers before you face strain on the government and a sluggish economy.

Tocquerville explored aspects of this in his work on poverty. He wanted to know why people were richer in England but poor in Spain, but in Spain no beggars existed, while in England it had such a terrible situation with homeless and beggars on public wealthfare.

Tocquerville: Memoir On Pauperism: Does public charity produce an idle and dependant class of society? (1835)

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:56 pm

Echoes is right, however I do support the roboticization of factories. No man no woman should have to slave away at a factory, such a thing is dastardly and subhuman, I say give humans their dignity back.

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by FlashDangerpants » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:00 am

prof wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:40 am
I see UBI - or generalized Social Security - as a good policy not so much as a way to make a dent in poverty, but as a way to provide work that a person is passionate about
How?

A hammer is a tool for banging a nail into a wall - so if I have a nail and a wall, and I wish to put the former inside the latter, a hammer is the rational tool of choice. If I have some paint, and a canvas, and I want a lovely picture of water lilies, I might need a subtler tool for that purpose than a hammer though.

UBI is a similarly simple implement. It is an income replacement mechanism that has nothing to do with any form of labour whatsoever. So how could it possibly be a tool for directing people to do work they are "passionate" about? It is designed to replace unemployment insurance and other needs based income supplements - if those existing tools don't propel people into "passionate" work already, then the one-dimensional tool you are looking at is not rational for that purpose either.

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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:46 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:56 pm
Echoes is right, however I do support the roboticization of factories. No man no woman should have to slave away at a factory, such a thing is dastardly and subhuman, I say give humans their dignity back.
I disagree here. There are people who do like to work in factories at an agreed upon market wage so we're not talking slavery here. You're imposing your preconceived notions as to what slavery is. Those people who do want to work at the factory do not lose dignity, in fact many would feel they lose their dignity and more if they were unable to work.

PhilX 🇺🇸

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Seleucus
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:29 am

Free money, sigh me up baby! Easy streets from now on! I'll never work another day!
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:56 pm
Echoes is right, however I do support the roboticization of factories. No man no woman should have to slave away at a factory, such a thing is dastardly and subhuman, I say give humans their dignity back.
All those people telling your kids to follow their dreams and to find a job they'd do even if it weren't paid are narcissists. No one would want to spend their time in a bottle factory for the fun of it, and yet where would we be without bottles? Our highly status oriented culture has disparaged the kinds of practical, essential work that is imperative to the material quality of our lives. The Communists at least had this point right about valuing the contribution laborers make to society. (That isn't to say I'm an anti-robotics Luddite.)

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:29 am

The usual idiocy from yanks. UBI wouldn't cost any more than welfare and would likely cost considerably less. It's only enough to prevent actual starvation, so people are hardly going to leave work in order to get less than half the minimum wage. Yes, there might be some who are happy to live off that but it would be only a minute portion of the population.There is really no valid argument against UBI.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:37 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:46 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:56 pm
Echoes is right, however I do support the roboticization of factories. No man no woman should have to slave away at a factory, such a thing is dastardly and subhuman, I say give humans their dignity back.
I disagree here. There are people who do like to work in factories at an agreed upon market wage so we're not talking slavery here. You're imposing your preconceived notions as to what slavery is. Those people who do want to work at the factory do not lose dignity, in fact many would feel they lose their dignity and more if they were unable to work.

PhilX 🇺🇸
Noone in their right mind wants to work in a factory, they do it out of no other choice.
Did Joker want to work in a factory?
I wish Joker was here right now, he could explain to you how the social powers manipulate people into believing economic slavery is freedom. They abolished slavery so they could make slavery mainstream, by putting a strangehold on property ownership. You must work for X amount to have the right to live.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:40 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:29 am
All those people telling your kids to follow their dreams and to find a job they'd do even if it weren't paid are narcissists. No one would want to spend their time in a bottle factory for the fun of it, and yet where would we be without bottles? Our highly status oriented culture has disparaged the kinds of practical, essential work that is imperative to the material quality of our lives. The Communists at least had this point right about valuing the contribution laborers make to society. (That isn't to say I'm an anti-robotics Luddite.)
I anticipate there will be a cultural resistance to robotization of factories, and my post is in anticipation of this. For now, people will work as slaves in factories. But I anticipate a future where there will be a debate on whether or not it is ethical to "steal" jobs from people using robots. But what is important are the products, resources, not the wages. If you have products, resources in a society, you have a functioning society. The purpose of money is to obtain products and resources.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:44 pm

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:37 pm
Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:46 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:56 pm
Echoes is right, however I do support the roboticization of factories. No man no woman should have to slave away at a factory, such a thing is dastardly and subhuman, I say give humans their dignity back.
I disagree here. There are people who do like to work in factories at an agreed upon market wage so we're not talking slavery here. You're imposing your preconceived notions as to what slavery is. Those people who do want to work at the factory do not lose dignity, in fact many would feel they lose their dignity and more if they were unable to work.

PhilX 🇺🇸
Noone in their right mind wants to work in a factory, they do it out of no other choice.
Did Joker want to work in a factory?
I wish Joker was here right now, he could explain to you how the social powers manipulate people into believing economic slavery is freedom. They abolished slavery so they could make slavery mainstream, by putting a strangehold on property ownership. You must work for X amount to have the right to live.
It depends on what the work is and what the conditions are like. There's no reason why many people wouldn't enjoy a factory job. Some people can make the most of any job and do it as well as they can. Factory jobs in the 'West' are practically extinct now anyway--hence the common sense of a UBI and the rise of the American bullshit industry -- counselling (therapy), recruiting agencies, human resources departments, job titles that no one can decipher but are supposed to sound terribly important (real professions don't need self-important titles), call centres, PAs/'Executive' assistants (whatever happened to secretaries?)..... Is there any difference between getting well paid to do a meaningless bullshit 'job' that creates nothing, or sitting around all day smoking pot? At least the pot smoker has no spare money to help cock up the planet with.

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:43 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:44 pm
It depends on what the work is and what the conditions are like. There's no reason why many people wouldn't enjoy a factory job. Some people can make the most of any job and do it as well as they can. Factory jobs in the 'West' are practically extinct now anyway--hence the common sense of a UBI and the rise of the American bullshit industry -- counselling (therapy), recruiting agencies, human resources departments, job titles that no one can decipher but are supposed to sound terribly important (real professions don't need self-important titles), call centres, PAs/'Executive' assistants (whatever happened to secretaries?)..... Is there any difference between getting well paid to do a meaningless bullshit 'job' that creates nothing, or sitting around all day smoking pot? At least the pot smoker has no spare money to help cock up the planet with.
Assembly line jobs are the worst.

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Seleucus
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Seleucus » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:15 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:43 pm
Assembly line jobs are the worst.
We only need so many doctors and lawyers. Assembly line workers provide us with almost all our material goods. Labor is not a disgrace, hard work is a virtue. That's not an anti-robot statement, I'm not a Luddite.

prof
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by prof » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:33 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:15 am
... Labor is not a disgrace, hard work is a virtue. ...
We agree on this, Seleucus. Well said !

Here is a recent update on the theme of this thread:
You may want to check this out:

http://basicincome.org/news/2017/11/rep ... onference/

Also ... see this interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdHOZCy ... e=youtu.be

Discussion welcome.

.
Last edited by prof on Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: An update on the Applied Ethics solution known as Universal Basic Income

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:43 pm

The dignity of work has already been eroded away by technology. This will erode it away quicker as the impetus to "technologicalize" everything will increase further due to people not working.

"Why work if you make more money at home?" many will say, and due to their inability to create anything (whether lack of drive, skill, or both) people will stagnate.

The elites are using this as a temporary solution to keep control.

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