Race versus culture

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:18 pm

thedoc wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:59 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:34 pm
Humans still don't like each other very much.
You should fit right in, you don't like anyone.
:lol:

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:31 am

Belinda wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:25 pm
Seleucus, would it perhaps be better if you stopped referring to race when what you mean is ethnicity?
Ethnicity can be defined as "belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition". Since I'm juxtaposing race against culture (ethnicity), it wouldn't make sense to call race ethnicity.

I do appreciate that the Greeks used the word race to mean those who spoke Greek and had been through a Greek education. I understand the ancient Aryans understood race to include those who performed the same Avestan religious rights. That is how they defined "our people".

commonsense
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by commonsense » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:33 am

thedoc wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:25 pm
commonsense wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:10 pm
The cause of not throwing chips in with the human race is fear.
That is certainly one factor. Sorry for this, but sometimes a song says it better than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnY-Ft7F9eo
I applaud your post, thedoc, and am envious of the time you have to track down a relevant youtube clip.

I would have it that one must be taught to fear and to hate, or one must be taught not to. The former supports the Nurture argument; the latter, the Nature argument.

Another thought, stupidity very likely plays a role in the practice of hatred as well. Yet a stupid individual would be unable to learn unacceptable behaviors as well as unable to be taught not to engage in such behaviors. Given that, I would propose that the source of fear and hatred is innate.

On further inspection though, it would seem to me that even the stupidest of human beings is capable of response to experience. If so, experiences can inform responses of fear and hatred. Life experiences can teach even the most stupid among us to fear and to hate.

I suppose it must be a case of Nature + Nurture, rather than Nature v. Nurture.

commonsense
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by commonsense » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:36 am

Seleucus wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:31 am
Belinda wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:25 pm
Seleucus, would it perhaps be better if you stopped referring to race when what you mean is ethnicity?
Ethnicity can be defined as "belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition". Since I'm juxtaposing race against culture (ethnicity), it wouldn't make sense to call race ethnicity.

I do appreciate that the Greeks used the word race to mean those who spoke Greek and had been through a Greek education. I understand the ancient Aryans understood race to include those who performed the same Avestan religious rights. That is how they defined "our people".
Once you can agree on the definitions, the rest is made easier.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:41 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:15 pm
inherently inferior anyway
The jury has to be still out on this. Myself, I can imagine that culture is sufficient to explain the differences between races. But we have to grant that no scientific control-group research has been done on the psychology of whole races. It seems pretty clear there are temperamental differences between dog breeds. Are Indians filthy because they have not been taught to feel disgust at the sight of rot and rubbish, or is the psychological propensity, or lack there of, genetically controlled? Are Black Americans performing so poorly in schools because of something like a culture of poverty, or because of genetic differences? Since large scale experiments on whole societies is impossible, and race and culture tend to be almost always co-joined, there isn't likely to be an answer coming anytime soon.

One possible clue might come from a law suit in Canada recently, native Indians were adopted in mass by non-Red Indian parents over the past decades, if those adopted Indians have been far more successful in society in terms of education, rate of suicide, rate of drug addiction, happiness rating and so on, that kind of "twin study" might give some clues? But, it couldn't be definitive given the many complex variables. The jury is always going to be out on this question of the material inferiority and superiority of races.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... s-children

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:42 am

commonsense wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:36 am
Seleucus wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:31 am
Belinda wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:25 pm
Seleucus, would it perhaps be better if you stopped referring to race when what you mean is ethnicity?
Ethnicity can be defined as "belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition". Since I'm juxtaposing race against culture (ethnicity), it wouldn't make sense to call race ethnicity.

I do appreciate that the Greeks used the word race to mean those who spoke Greek and had been through a Greek education. I understand the ancient Aryans understood race to include those who performed the same Avestan religious rights. That is how they defined "our people".
Once you can agree on the definitions, the rest is made easier.
For me, and most people today, ethnicity means culture, and race is material, haplogroups are probably the most objective way we can talk about race these days.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:46 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:31 pm
Belinda wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:25 pm
Seleucus, would it perhaps be better if you stopped referring to race when what you mean is ethnicity?
So he doesn't like people who are cosmetically different from him.
I appreciate being among my people. I appreciate being among people I can understand, who share common values and dreams. The land, the culture and the people are a symbiotic entity. Everyone refugee, everyone in exile, everyone stationed with the military or working abroad understands this at a very bodily and emotional level.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:48 am

thedoc wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:14 pm
It would probably upset some people to be told that all human beings are one race even if they are different ethnicity. (Race and species mean just about the same thing.) It would probably upset them even more if you told them that all humans evolved from the same common ancestor as the other apes and the monkeys.
Race is closer to the word "sub-species" since even the most distant races can all breed together.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:04 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:08 pm
Seleucus wrote:What do you think? ...
I think by an' large it's none of my business but if I was to act it would be on the side that wasn't slaughtering and raping women and children as my starter.
Okay. But, say, in Rakhine state, which side would that be? It's been an endless back and forth race war for more than 500 years.
I accept people on their behavior towards me and mine regardless of race or creed.
What do you mean by "mine"? Race or culture? Do you love your biological children who join a cult more, or your adopted child who is loyal to all that you have taught him?
What necessary links are there between a race, a language and a religion?
Best question yet probably.

Boaz wrote a whole fat book on it, Race, language and culture,

https://monoskop.org/images/8/8f/Boas_F ... e_1940.pdf

Honestly this is a vast and deep topic that would be hard to answer briefly. The connection between Arabic and Islam is a pretty strong one even among Muslims who don't speak it, Arabic was the language Gabriel spoke to Muhammad in and generally it is believed that Islamic jargon can really only be understood in Arabic. Christians have a similar view when it comes to reading the Bible in the "original" Greek or what have you. Greek and Latin and generally Indo-European languages are interwoven into the religion and world view of Europeans, I'm reading last night in Anthony's The Horse, the Wheel and Language how grammatical structures in PIE language that persist influence Western thinking,

https://ia801009.us.archive.org/28/item ... nguage.pdf

The mind is like a radio receiver so we tend to think that race and culture are relatively interchangeable, you can play European music on a Japanese radio. While that might be true, most acorns don't fall too far from the tree and at our time in history today, race and culture and and language and religion are closely co-mingled. Also, note the point of Evola or Renan above that incongruity between race and religion are possible if rare. There will also be those who see race, religion, culture and language as cybernetic and symbiotic entities, race evolves within its cultural group and vice versa.

This is a big big topic that one could write thousands of pages on...

davidm
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by davidm » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:09 am

Seleucus wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:05 am
Race certainly exists ...
No it doesn't, twit.

You,like most of the people who post here, have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:14 am

Dubious wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:13 pm
thedoc wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:57 pm
Dubious wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:28 pm
...and the only reason apes and monkeys are still around is that god needs a spare in case man screws up.
Too late. I guess we should be waiting for the asteroid, a big one, - no, that would wipe the apes out too, - it doesn't matter, God can fix it?
Maybe not too late; apes and monkeys are still around! He can put them in charge instead; that way humans can be more confident about their own future and that of the planet as a whole.
This isn't a joke but the reality since we know that all non-Africans are bred with Neanderthals and Orientals bred with Denisovans. Some peoples like the pygmies are so different from the rest of humans it's astounding.

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:15 am

davidm wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:09 am
Seleucus wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:05 am
Race certainly exists ...
No it doesn't, twit.

You,like most of the people who post here, have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
Powerful argument based on extensive research, and written respectfully too.

davidm
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by davidm » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:20 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:18 pm
thedoc wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:59 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:34 pm
Humans still don't like each other very much.
You should fit right in, you don't like anyone.
:lol:
I actually kind of like Veg. :)

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:21 am

commonsense wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:33 am
I would have it that one must be taught to fear and to hate, or one must be taught not to. The former supports the Nurture argument; the latter, the Nature argument.
I take the Zen view myself. An interesting point for this discussion since of course Buddhism is an Indo-European spirituality which today is largely practiced by Orientals. Bodhidharma himself was a blue eyed White man. In Zen, anger is totally fine, anger and hatred are useful emotions, it is lingering on and looping our anger that is the vice, or being angry when we need to be calculating and deliberate, that's a problem.

davidm
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by davidm » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:21 am

Seleucus wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:15 am
davidm wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:09 am
Seleucus wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:05 am
Race certainly exists ...
No it doesn't, twit.

You,like most of the people who post here, have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
Powerful argument based on extensive research, and written respectfully too.
You don't deserve respect. And yes, there are powerful arguments based on extensive research supporting what I say.

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