Race versus culture

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Seleucus
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:32 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:28 pm
OuterLimits wrote:Where do you find that information. In the US there are black immigrants, and there are the "sons of slaves" and the outcomes of these 2 groups are very different. In the UK who does the best, who does the worst, and where were they born?
Given your reply and questions we're probably on the same page here, so UK govt educational statistics but here's a broadsheet article giving the basics -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filt ... chool.html
What happened is a double whammy. Starting from the 1970s as it became known that girls were underperforming in school substantial allocation of focus and funding went towards girls' ecuation. By the 90s girls reached parity and are today ahead of boys. Similarly, as it become known that minority learners were underperforming in school, funds and focus shifted to non-White students. As you can see in the first link, in 1997 White working class boys were still ahead of black working class boys in school (p.378). By the 2014/15 report in the second link, which is the report ultimately being referred to in the news piece, White boys have fallen behind.

http://www.academicroom.com/article/eth ... chievement

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 42/142.pdf

A scan of the 2014/15 report well assures this situation is not likely to change, (unless through democracy and Britons elect their own Trump). Boys are being destroyed in a maelstrom of political correctness: amazingly, sections 19 through 21 actually specifically advise against "focusing specifically on white working class underachievement". Professor Gillborn, quoted in section 20, insists that giving any additional focus or funding to working class white boys would be racist and a criticism of multicullturalism and therefore "hugely dangerous".
Last edited by Seleucus on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:35 am

Oh I see, so it's not race now but poverty and resources. Make your sodding mind up. :roll:

You also missed this bit -
"As Jenny North (Impetus—the Private Equity
Foundation) described the situation, “[...] ethnic minority acceleration of performance has not pushed white working-class boys’ attainment down. It has simply exposed what was already there”."
p.s.
Oh! And it's not 'white boys' but poor white working class boys.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:47 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:35 am
Oh I see, so it's not race now but poverty and resources. Make your sodding mind up. :roll:

You also missed this bit -
"As Jenny North (Impetus—the Private Equity
Foundation) described the situation, “[...] ethnic minority acceleration of performance has not pushed white working-class boys’ attainment down. It has simply exposed what was already there”."
No doubt working class White boys have been underperforming for a while... Yet I'm pretty confident in my analysis that education system focus and funds is the reason for the change of girl and minority performance over the past four decades. :roll: I'll be happy to discuss this topic in detail with you if you like? I'm open to looking at any scholarly articles or reports you'd like to bring to my attention.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:52 am

OuterLimits wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:19 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:03 pm
Right this is true. This is why I hesitate to say that the White race should be the master race, or even the Japanese (Japan is sexually repressed and socially disfunctional). I believe the ultimate race should be made through genetic experimentation. However what I can't stand is when liberals pretend that blacks are intellectually equals to the Whites. I never said Whites are perfect, I admit they have flaws. Yet I am supposed to pretend blacks are perfect and have no flaws, its insulting and it's such a double standard.
It seems that the smartest whites are generally dedicated to helping everyone reach their highest potential, and the dumbest whites are often the ones the most attracted to promoting racial differences and keeping other groups down.
Can you link to the research and journal articles you're referencing?
These are averages we're talking about, remember.
Against what p-value?

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:15 am

Seleucus wrote:...No doubt working class White boys have been underperforming for a while... Yet I'm pretty confident in my analysis that education system focus and funds is the reason for the change of girl and minority performance over the past four decades. :roll: ...
So not " "in·cor·ri·gi·ble"." then. :roll:

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:21 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote: Please read my post.
My post implies it is mostly due to genetic factors (70%) and not societal factors (30%).

You have ignored all of my arguments and points.
Because most of them are nonsense. If they are not then explain why poor working class white boys are doing worse than poor working class black boys in my country?

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:28 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:21 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote: Please read my post.
My post implies it is mostly due to genetic factors (70%) and not societal factors (30%).

You have ignored all of my arguments and points.
Because most of them are nonsense. If they are not then explain why poor working class white boys are doing worse than poor working class black boys in my country?
What happened is a double whammy. Starting from the 1970s as it became known that girls were underperforming in school substantial allocation of focus and funding went towards girls' ecuation. By the 90s girls reached parity and are today ahead of boys. Similarly, as it become known that minority learners were underperforming in school, funds and focus shifted to non-White students. As you can see in the first link, in 1997 White working class boys were still ahead of black working class boys in school (p.378). By the 2014/15 report in the second link, which is the report ultimately being referred to in the news piece, White boys have fallen behind.

http://www.academicroom.com/article/eth ... chievement

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 42/142.pdf

A scan of the 2014/15 report well assures this situation is not likely to change, (unless through democracy and Britons elect their own Trump). Boys are being destroyed in a maelstrom of political correctness: amazingly, sections 19 through 21 actually specifically advise against "focusing specifically on white working class underachievement". Professor Gillborn, quoted in section 20, insists that giving any additional focus or funding to working class white boys would be racist and a criticism of multicullturalism and therefore "hugely dangerous".

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:36 am

So not "in·cor·ri·gi·ble" then troll. :roll:

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:18 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:36 am
So not "in·cor·ri·gi·ble" then troll. :roll:
I expect that you agree with me that education system focus and funds is the reason for the change of girl and minority performance over the past four decades.

I also expect that you agree with me that the Sahara Desert had a very inhibiting effect on the transmission of cognitive structures and civilizational technologies from Eurasia into Black Africa.

And I also expect that you agree with my major thesis in this discussion: that social integration is not going to happen even in a great span of time because people love their identities, the failure of (im)migrants to integrate thus far is not a failure of government policy or an aberration but the expected norm based on historical trends; given that, mass (im)migration of people of highly alien cultures will inevitably lead to an undermining of Western values in White homelands such as democracy, free speech, women's rights, creativity, freedom of religion, diligence, fitness and health and environmentalism, to be subsumed by foreign habits such as authoritarianism, subservience of women, dogmatism, religious chauvinism, laziness, and littering.

You may even agree that the fundamental problem might be viewed as the unquenchable need for the economy to forever keep expanding: through colonization, and when thwarted, mass (im)migration; with the general solution being sustainable economy.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Belinda » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:56 am

OuterLimits wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:19 pm
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:15 pm
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:... However what I can't stand is when liberals pretend that blacks are intellectually equals to the Whites. ...
And yet in my country the poorest performers are the white boys, how do you explain this?
Where do you find that information. In the US there are black immigrants, and there are the "sons of slaves" and the outcomes of these 2 groups are very different. In the UK who does the best, who does the worst, and where were they born?
I agree with Arising_uk. The social and cultural situations of American Africans and African Americans are not alike. American Africans i.e. immigrants are likely to be imbued with traditional and strict African morality and customs.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Londoner » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:50 am

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:54 pm

My post implies it is mostly due to genetic factors (70%) and not societal factors (30%).
The genes that code for skin tone do not code for intelligence.

This argument is as dumb as if somebody was insisting that what determines the speed of a car is the colour of the bodywork.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:54 pm

Seleucus wrote:I expect that you agree with me that education system focus and funds is the reason for the change of girl and minority performance over the past four decades. ...
So you agree that it is not race that makes the difference, good.
I also expect that you agree with me that the Sahara Desert had a very inhibiting effect on the transmission of cognitive structures and civilizational technologies from Eurasia into Black Africa. ...
No idea what a 'cognitive structure' is and care to give an example of these 'civilizational technologies'?
And I also expect that you agree with my major thesis in this discussion: that social integration is not going to happen even in a great span of time because people love their identities, the failure of (im)migrants to integrate thus far is not a failure of government policy or an aberration but the expected norm based on historical trends; ...
And yet many immigrants appear to be fitting in all over the place?
given that, mass (im)migration of people of highly alien cultures will inevitably lead to an undermining of Western values in White homelands such as democracy, free speech, women's rights, creativity, freedom of religion, diligence, fitness and health and environmentalism, to be subsumed by foreign habits such as authoritarianism, subservience of women, dogmatism, religious chauvinism, laziness, and littering. ...
Personally I think we'll be getting these things if you neo-nazis ever get to power(well maybe not the littering but then the Singaporeans appear to have this licked). Unlike you I think it possible to create a culture that most can sign-up to instead of retreating to the petty barricades.
You may even agree that the fundamental problem might be viewed as the unquenchable need for the economy to forever keep expanding: through colonization, and when thwarted, mass (im)migration; with the general solution being sustainable economy.
Lebensraum eh! Might have known. :roll: Or that environmental and political change forces people to move and nothing will be stopping them if they have to so best to create a society that can create a sense unity and common identity along with rights and obligations. Not an impossible dream as Marx, Religion, et al show that people will join a greater cause if it makes sense.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:48 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:54 pm
Seleucus wrote:I expect that you agree with me that education system focus and funds is the reason for the change of girl and minority performance over the past four decades. ...
So you agree that it is not race that makes the difference, good.
Civilization was built by the whip. Over essentially our lifetimes the whip went out of use, and there will be consequences. One is an incredible loss for boys. Boys are in the main rambunctious. A certain portion of boys simply cannot be kept in order with attempted shaming and reasoning. While many lament the supposed mental effects a whipping will have on a boy, it ought to be rather obvious that five minutes of crying and an hour pouting is less injurious to a boy compared to the loss of his pre-school and likely most of the years of his elementary education.

Considerable evidence also supports the claim that boys learn better from men, and girls from women, but the Anglo education system is in the area of plus 80% women teachers. Boys organize their social spaces differently, it is inclusive but hierarchical: think of a football team with its captain and fat kid goal keeper, girls however are cliquey and exclusive. Women teachers inevitably create female social spaces where boys have difficulty functioning. The urban classroom has no space for wrestling and roughhousing which is natural to boys, instead it suits girls who are typically more reticent and less physical... I digress.
I also expect that you agree with me that the Sahara Desert had a very inhibiting effect on the transmission of cognitive structures and civilizational technologies from Eurasia into Black Africa. ...
No idea what a 'cognitive structure' is
You ought to be a smart person if you've been running this forum for ten years. So...

Did you try Google for cognitive structures? http://www.ascd.org/publications/books/ ... atter.aspx

Did you try Google Scholar for cognitive structures? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01178747
and care to give an example of these 'civilizational technologies'?
The whip --

Civilization was built with the whip. As we have already discussed, the discovery of animal training, particularly with the horse, led to the understanding of how we could train ourselves. As Nietzsche put it in Beyond good and evil, "almost everything we call higher culture‘ is based on the spiritualization and intensification of cruelty".

Blacks have overall not gotten so much of the whip and are proportionately that much less civilizationally advanced. (And that much less neurotic if you want to look at the silver lining.)
You may even agree that the fundamental problem might be viewed as the unquenchable need for the economy to forever keep expanding: through colonization, and when thwarted, mass (im)migration; with the general solution being sustainable economy.
Lebensraum eh! Might have known. :roll:
No actually. You can't see what I'm saying in plain English because you can't stop projecting your Nazi straw men, you're locked into an ideological lens where you see Nazis everywhere and can no longer hear what others are even saying. Godwin's law used to be a joke, now it's the first and only argument anyone's got.

Where you and I differ very sharply in our thinking, to return to something you've stated two times in this discussion, is that while you are a materialist and imperialist (Marxist); my position is the opposite: I believe in an idealist interpretation of history: our history unfolds because of psychological reasons: you might say the Byzantines collapsed because they lost at Manzikert, I would say a malaise had overcome the society and hence they lost at Manzikert. You expect your Western culture to overrun the world, and every foreigner in your country to conform to your liberal way of living, I'm willing to live and let live and allow others to have their unique identities and live in their traditional ways.
Last edited by Seleucus on Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by Seleucus » Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:58 pm

Londoner wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:50 am
This argument is as dumb as...
No reply about the genetics stuff?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22847&start=360#p337405

KOed. 🥊
davidm wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:22 pm
Evidence, dummy?
No reply about the genetics stuff?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22847&start=345#p337329

KOed. 🥊

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Re: Race versus culture

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie » Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:34 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:21 am
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote: Please read my post.
My post implies it is mostly due to genetic factors (70%) and not societal factors (30%).

You have ignored all of my arguments and points.
Because most of them are nonsense. If they are not then explain why poor working class white boys are doing worse than poor working class black boys in my country?
I already explained it. And you haven't even replied to any of my points. This seems like a mock trial where you declare yourself the winner. The post where I explain it is litterally 1 post directly above yours, and you probably didn't even bother to read it.

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