Legislating Human Decency

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-1-
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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by -1- » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:01 pm

Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 am
Laws work because they can punish. Punishment is doing wrong to humans.
To do wrong to humans is not decent.
The punishment is conditional. Not real unless someone breaks the law.

Causing fear is not indecent if it promotes fairness and decency. Fear in and by itself is a negative feeling, true; but in case of the law one does not fear it, it is only a language expression to convey, "I'd better not break" the law.

The expression "fear" in "fearing the law" is not to describe an actual fear. Much like "fearing God" is not to describe an actual fear of god; it describes an entity that potentially can harm you, should you go against its will. Law or god, the fear is not an active, stress-producing, negative feeling... it is an expression only, which has its classic meaning shifted.

It is the fear of law that is useful in social conduct. You were right, Walker, the punishment is indecent. That's why many advocate the non-punishment of criminals, but designing a method which makes criminal behaviour unattractive to those who are toying with the idea of committing what we deem crimes, yet does not punish the criminals.

The punishing arm of the law is a numbers game. I suspect for each person who goes to jail for murder, there are at least a million persons who would commit murder should the law not punish them for it later. To do indecent things to 1 person (who murdered and went to jail) is better than to do indecent things to 1 million people, who would become the murder victims of those who do not murder only because the law stops them.
Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 am
(How many wives does your neighbor have?)
Haha! You, careful reader, you.

I like that, actually. Very much. That someone pays attention when s/he reads. Very commendable.

Impenitent
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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Impenitent » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:03 am

-1- wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:49 am
Impenitent wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 pm
"laws to make humans decent"

"morals to make humans decent"

persuading to prevent choice is futile...

there are other more effective means

-Imp
What are those other, more effective means? Pray do tell us.
removing the ability to choose obviously...

yet humans will behave as they can regardless of your wishes

-Imp

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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by -1- » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:35 am

-1- asks: What are those other, more effective means? Pray do tell us.

imp replies: removing the ability to choose obviously...

-1- has to ask: how do you suppose that is a means? I see that as an end, but you said there are means that are better. So what are the means by which the ability to choose is removed, and the same means (yet to be described by you) are more effective than the law?

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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Walker » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:45 am

-1- wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:01 pm
Walker wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 am
(How many wives does your neighbor have?)
Haha! You, careful reader, you.

I like that, actually. Very much. That someone pays attention when s/he reads. Very commendable.
It happens sometimes.

The neighbor's punishment for multiple wives is inherent in the relationship dynamics.

On the luster's side of the coin, so is the punishment for a cheatin' heart inherent to being human, 'cause your cheatin' heart will will tell on you in some way that you can't predict or prevent.

Cautionary tales from a trusted source rather than law-threats of punishment from secular regulations are the only form of legislating that can prevent inherent punishments. The inherent punishments are more a function of physics (cause and effect) rather than morality.

&

As Morgan Freeman tells us with the voice of God:

“The law is mans’ feeble attempt to set down the principles of decency.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWSlEIswJxg


Keyword: feeble.
Prisons bring jobs to the hinterlands.

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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Judaka » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:13 pm

We already do legislate human decency but you want to take it a step further by making people "scared" of failure to comply with human decency.

You're always going to have to fight if you want to compel people to do things and nothing will change that, not even legislation. I think it would be naive to think that we can define human decency and compel people to act in accordance with that.

History teaches us the same thing over and over again, seeking power and control in the name of altruism leads to disaster beyond comprehension.

Even if things don't go to that extent, it'd certainly be the death of free speech and no government is capable enough to actually implement anything like your examples.

I could probably go on for pages and pages about the risks, low probability of success and madness of the plan to legislate human decency to the point where people are compelled to whatever it is you think that would be.

As for corporations, we already do legislate ethical codes they're mandated to follow and if you believe they should be extended to further protect employees from mistreatment then you're probably correct. However, deal with these issues on a case-by-case basis and analysis things deeply rather than rushing to a conclusion.

The way things are is pretty good and people take it for granted big time.

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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by -1- » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:24 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:45 am
(1)
Cautionary tales from a trusted source rather than law-threats of punishment from secular regulations are the only form of legislating that can prevent inherent punishments. The inherent punishments are more a function of physics (cause and effect) rather than morality.

&
(2)
As Morgan Freeman tells us with the voice of God:

“The law is mans’ feeble attempt to set down the principles of decency.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWSlEIswJxg


Keyword: feeble.
Prisons bring jobs to the hinterlands.
(2) Agreed (but not because it's God's Own Voice. Radio GOV ought to have been a radio station aired at Secular Communist Europea back in the Sixties, mixing in its programming progressive heavy metal rock with truisms and moral messages from the New Testament.)

(1) I am not sure about this. Sure, I would be less afraid of prisons if I hadn't heard the horror stories of conditions inside. But I still would not commit murder due to going to prison, and no friend of mine or trusted relative has ever advised me against murder.

Regarding infidelity: in our mostly secular Western societies, there is no law to prevent you from cheating on your spouse. It may be cause for a divorce, true, but no prison term or financial punishment is to be paid to the altars of justice. Other than sharing your wealth with your ex-spouse, or legal fees for divorce.

In cultures where infidelity is punished by publicly stoning to death, the law may play a stronger role in preventing infidelity than hush-hush and neighbourly gossip, I would say.

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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Walker » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:23 pm

-1- wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:24 pm
Regarding infidelity: in our mostly secular Western societies, there is no law to prevent you from cheating on your spouse. It may be cause for a divorce, true, but no prison term or financial punishment is to be paid to the altars of justice. Other than sharing your wealth with your ex-spouse, or legal fees for divorce.
"Adultery isn't just a crime in the eyes of your spouse. In 21 states, cheating in a marriage is against the law, punishable by a fine or even jail time."
https://www.freep.com/story/life/family ... /28936155/

There are so many laws in the United States that you probably can't walk down the street enjoying the sunshine without breaking one or two.

However, ignoring the laws and crimes is a logical outcome of a two-tiered justice system.

Walker
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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Walker » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:42 pm

Judaka wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:13 pm
We already do legislate human decency but you want to take it a step further by making people "scared" of failure to comply with human decency.

You're always going to have to fight if you want to compel people to do things and nothing will change that, not even legislation. I think it would be naive to think that we can define human decency and compel people to act in accordance with that.

History teaches us the same thing over and over again, seeking power and control in the name of altruism leads to disaster beyond comprehension.

Even if things don't go to that extent, it'd certainly be the death of free speech and no government is capable enough to actually implement anything like your examples.

I could probably go on for pages and pages about the risks, low probability of success and madness of the plan to legislate human decency to the point where people are compelled to whatever it is you think that would be.

As for corporations, we already do legislate ethical codes they're mandated to follow and if you believe they should be extended to further protect employees from mistreatment then you're probably correct. However, deal with these issues on a case-by-case basis and analysis things deeply rather than rushing to a conclusion.

The way things are is pretty good and people take it for granted big time.
The keyword is, “inherent.”
Don’t ignore it.

Human nature is the inherent self-punishment for indecent acts.

This is not punishment caused by secular legislation.

Those acts that cause inherent self-punishment are the indecent acts.

Hank tells about the physics.
Fame was the prize, inherent punishment was the cost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCgicPdsxxg

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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by -1- » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:16 pm

Walker wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:23 pm
"Adultery isn't just a crime in the eyes of your spouse. In 21 states, cheating in a marriage is against the law, punishable by a fine or even jail time."
https://www.freep.com/story/life/family ... /28936155/
Which means that in 30 (I think) states it is not an illegal act to cheat on your spouse.

If you really got the ache for tail, just cross the state border, and bang, off you go without any legal ramifications.

Since we believe we live in a democratic society, 30 cheater's paradise beats 21 faithful sufferer states, so bang, the majority wins, isn't that the idea behind democracy.

Cheat on, baby. You see a cougar on the prowl? Then pounce like a cheetah. (How many states have outlawed bestiality? And how many states consider inter-species animal-to-animal sex bestiality under the law?)

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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Impenitent » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 pm

-1- wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:35 am
-1- asks: What are those other, more effective means? Pray do tell us.

imp replies: removing the ability to choose obviously...

-1- has to ask: how do you suppose that is a means? I see that as an end, but you said there are means that are better. So what are the means by which the ability to choose is removed, and the same means (yet to be described by you) are more effective than the law?
the dead never make indecent choices

-Imp

Walker
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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Walker » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 pm
-1- wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:35 am
-1- asks: What are those other, more effective means? Pray do tell us.

imp replies: removing the ability to choose obviously...

-1- has to ask: how do you suppose that is a means? I see that as an end, but you said there are means that are better. So what are the means by which the ability to choose is removed, and the same means (yet to be described by you) are more effective than the law?
the dead never make indecent choices

-Imp
Who can afford to die these days?

Impenitent
Posts: 2292
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Impenitent » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:39 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 pm
-1- wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:35 am
-1- asks: What are those other, more effective means? Pray do tell us.

imp replies: removing the ability to choose obviously...

-1- has to ask: how do you suppose that is a means? I see that as an end, but you said there are means that are better. So what are the means by which the ability to choose is removed, and the same means (yet to be described by you) are more effective than the law?
the dead never make indecent choices

-Imp
Who can afford to die these days?
those who don't pay enough taxes

-Imp

Judaka
Posts: 162
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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Judaka » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:06 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:42 pm
Judaka wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:13 pm
We already do legislate human decency but you want to take it a step further by making people "scared" of failure to comply with human decency.

You're always going to have to fight if you want to compel people to do things and nothing will change that, not even legislation. I think it would be naive to think that we can define human decency and compel people to act in accordance with that.

History teaches us the same thing over and over again, seeking power and control in the name of altruism leads to disaster beyond comprehension.

Even if things don't go to that extent, it'd certainly be the death of free speech and no government is capable enough to actually implement anything like your examples.

I could probably go on for pages and pages about the risks, low probability of success and madness of the plan to legislate human decency to the point where people are compelled to whatever it is you think that would be.

As for corporations, we already do legislate ethical codes they're mandated to follow and if you believe they should be extended to further protect employees from mistreatment then you're probably correct. However, deal with these issues on a case-by-case basis and analysis things deeply rather than rushing to a conclusion.

The way things are is pretty good and people take it for granted big time.
The keyword is, “inherent.”
Don’t ignore it.

Human nature is the inherent self-punishment for indecent acts.

This is not punishment caused by secular legislation.

Those acts that cause inherent self-punishment are the indecent acts.

Hank tells about the physics.
Fame was the prize, inherent punishment was the cost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCgicPdsxxg
History is a good enough example to not take human decency for granted and self-punishment is really...overly simplistic as a whole answer and only valid as a component.

Walker
Posts: 6677
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Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:12 am

Feel free to expand with additional components and complexity.

Walker
Posts: 6677
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Legislating Human Decency

Post by Walker » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:12 am

Impenitent wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:39 am
Walker wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 pm


the dead never make indecent choices

-Imp
Who can afford to die these days?
those who don't pay enough taxes

-Imp
You always manage to uncover another layer with a seed or sprout of truth in it.

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