Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal and

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ForCruxSake
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by ForCruxSake » Thu May 11, 2017 11:46 am

Seleucus wrote:Where I'm at at the moment is when I discuss philosophically with a close colleague, we make sure the door is closed so we aren't overheard. I use TOR and proxy services to be able to access government blocked websites. I support non-Islamist political candidates and I support private non-religious educational institutions. I wouldn't talk publicly or on a popular online platform about atheism and religion, in today's news:

"“Uploading & sharing of blasphemous content on Internet is a punishable offence under the law. Such content should be reported on info@pta.XXX.pk for legal action,” read the SMS sent by the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (PTA) to all mobile phone subscribers."
That's not good. It's for you to establish what could be defined as blasphemy, I would suggest, and avoid that.
Seleucus wrote: Sometimes this is called Arabization. Fifty years ago almost no women wore headscarves outside of a few Salafist enclaves, today it is ubiquitous. Ten years ago you couldn't see a niqab, today at parks and malls it is quite common to see women totally covered up. (Wahhabism is the outsider term for Salafism, Salafists consider the word Wahhabi derogatory. I personally use the word Salafi because its the word I'm used to, not because I'm a Salafist.)
Yes. It is this view that seems to be prevailing and 'bi'dah', or progressive Islam, which seemed to adapt Islam to cultures outside of Saudi Arabia, has been halted in its tracks, particularly, since 9/11, as people have made the choice not to hide a faith that is under attack, for the wrong reasons. The Salafi way seems to have taken influence.

Here in the UK, I only hear complaints about Wahabi-ism. It's good to get a balance with regards to terms.
Seleucus wrote:Generally it is magnanimous to 'live and let live'. On-the-other-hand, nazi arm-bands are symbol of fascism, symbols are on some level not real but they can have a lot of power, so it isn't very nice to see people going around with nazi arm-bands. We mostly want to reject everything about nazism, even though an arm-band is just a piece of cloth. People who say things like, "not all nazis were mass-murders, don't you know that nazis were leaders in the vegetarian and environmentalist movements" are going to get cock-eyed looks. Similarly, when people say, "not all Muslims are mass-murderers, don't you know that Muslims were leaders in calligraphy and geometric art", that's suspicious. Obviously a combination of rejection and reform is inevitable, assuming that Islam doesn't take over and become an eternal global caliphate.
There's a huge difference when comparing these two ideologies. Naziism is about the supremacy of an Aryan race which seeks to either cleanse and eradicate, or enslave, those of other races. Islam is a faith, a practise that also teaches peace, love and compassion., alongside the more 'eye for an eye' stuff that can be found in both Judaism and Chritianity.

People's hatred of Islam, based on current events, is irrational. They base the sympathies of the many as lying with the actions of a few. They don't seek to understand, in the case of America, their own nations responsibility for creating this situation, and they assume many, if not ALL Muslims ally themselves to terrorism.

No, Muslims ally themselves to Islam and some even get the freedom to interpret Islam, outside staunchly Islamic countries. No one seeks to even understand actual Muslim ideology before they criticise. They think they know Islam, based on what media reports of terrorist ideology.

That's distinctly different to Nazis and the ideology they follow. Most people know what Nazi ideology represents and calls for.

Islam isn't calling fur a global caliphate. The press sometimes report the lunacy of isolated Ayatollahs or Imans. If Islam wanted a global caliphate, several countries, long ago, would have created an alliance akin to the Catolic church, with its own Vatican, probably in Saudi Arabia, and some leader possibly drawn from the Sayed line of descendancy from the prophet. There's no unity amongst Muslim nations, so imposing a global caliphate would be an impossibility. There is no wish, on the part of Muslims I know, to take over the world by force or to impose Islam on others. This is a nonsense.
Seleucus wrote:Below the level of jihad, apostasy, blasphemy and miscegenation laws and such things, but still important problems are: (1) circumcision of boys and also girls (FGM), (2) animal sacrifice, and (3) megaphones on mosques. The loudspeakers on minarets is a really serious issue that I don't believe most people in the West are even aware of. There is a mosque on every block that blares Arabic chanting for hours on end, even in the middle of the night, even for whole days continuously. Given the established relationship between sleep and intelligence, the mosque noise-pollution problem in the Islamic world is probably sufficient to explain Donald Templer's research on Muslim IQ. But the stifling of free thinking, speech, and press is probably however the real reason why only 11 out of 911 Nobel Prizes have gone to Muslims.
Now this part of the discussion I find extremely dodgy.

Just like in 'Star Trek' where the policy was not to interfere with, or impose ideology, onto alien cultures, I don't believe it is any nation's right to interfere with another nations self-determination, whether we agree with them or not. It is for their own people to do that either through the electoral system or failing that, if it comes to it, civil war. As it is , the West had constantly interfered with countries in South America, the Middle East, and Asia, and whilst it appears to have no care for wars in Africa, big corporations are placing their money where they want the politics to go.

Circumcision, whether I agree with it or not, if practised by a country, is determined as thier choice. FGM is not practised in all Muslim countries, it's practised in a few Muslim countries, in Africa, so to me it's not even a Muslim practise, unlike circumcision, which is generally accepted by all Muslims.

Kosher and halal practises are also practises I have no problems with. We rear and kill animals to eat all over the world. Stunning an animal before death, is still felt by an animal. I just ask that we eat ALL the meat. I get cross when I see plates of half eaten meat in restaurants, when the life of those animals were extinguished to feed us.

Outside of Islamic countries, these become a choice for Muslims. I know a few African Muslims, Somalian mainly, and none have chosen to elect FGM. The majority of Muslims I know have elected to have their sons circumcised, and this was once available for free on the NHS, here. Whilst its popularity is declining in the West, there Is no such backlash against circumcision, here, and I too have no problem with circumcision. It was once a standard practise in the US, seen as hygienic. Now it's a choice for Muslims and non-Muslims alike that seems to be fading in popularity as we learn to take better care of ourselves.

The way you describe Adhan, as being called from "a mosque on every block that blares Arabic chanting for hours on end, even in the middle of the night, even for whole days continuously", makes me wonder if you really are simply a lapsed Muslim, or even just an atheist in a Muslim country. You could just as easily be here to promote a bigotry of Islam by appearing to be a fearful atheist, rather than a manipulative critic.

People are aware of the sound of Adhan. Tourists often comment on how charming it is to hear these 'exotic sounds' when visiting Muslim countries. Adhan has been called for centuries in Middle Eastern countries, but they still came up with not just art and geometry, as you have pointed out, but more advanced mathematics, science architecture and philosophy, at a time when Europeans were living in the dark ages. You could just as easily, and idiotically, claim that that 'blaring chant'' was an inspiring call to thinking!

The paper you loosely cite as Donald Templar's study on Muslim IQ, "The Comparison of Mean IQ in Muslim and Non-Muslim Countries' can be found here.

http://donalditempler.com/assets/templer_8.pdf

And here's who he is:

http://donalditempler.com/

It's a very dodgy academic paper', which I find scientifically questionable. It's terribly loaded and, despite his accreditations, I wouldn't be surprised if the chap was a bit of a right wing, Nazi sympathiser, just from his lack of neutrality in the language he uses.

You often seem to bring up obscure studies or academics, in your posts, as if they lend credence to what you are saying. If no one knows who they, or what their accreditations, are, and their research is obscure, on unsupported, it's pointless you citing them, as if they are reputable. You need to provide what's obscure, if you are going to cite what's obscure, in order to allow proper examination of what it is you are saying.

I'm afraid I can see why Skip reacted the way he did, to you, and I'm now slightly suspicious of your motives, myself.
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:saying the prophet had said that on his passing, each community should elect a community leader to help the community come to decisions, on questions of faith.
I would personally not engage in a debate on the level of theology any more than I would engage in a serious discussion on who would win in a fight between Mighty Mouse and Superman. This relates to the issue of blasphemy charges since even to enter into a defense against blasphemy charges acknowledges the legitimacy of such a concept.
I'm confused. You suggested you feared talking about atheism and Islam, but that you have the courage of Socrates to speak as you find. You are happy to describe Adhan, in a way I find offensive, and yet you don't seem to see how this might get you into trouble, and now here you are unable to pass comment on something said by a contemporary Muslim community. Odd. By discussing their decision, with a knowledge of actual Islamic doctrine and a little careful phrasing you, you could have commented , without crossing bounds into blasphemy, instead of ducking for cover.

Your agenda is confusing me, perhaps you need to be clearer in what it is you would like to be discussing or what your angle is, because right now, I'm thinking you're just another clever, manipulative thinker, who wants to appear to vent spleen against Islam, and/or Muslims, in what appears to be a reputable, cogent manner.

I have my own problems with Islam's restrictions, but yours suggest your only real problem is the need to be able to be free to think and express things like: 'the Muslim IQ is lower because of the lack of sleep from the blaring noise of the call to prayer at all times of the day and night'.

Luckily, you have that freedom here. You just may not be taken very seriously for the thoughts you have.
Last edited by ForCruxSake on Thu May 11, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu May 11, 2017 12:11 pm

Seleucus wrote: Where I'm at at the moment is when I discuss philosophically with a close colleague, we make sure the door is closed so we aren't overheard. ...
Be careful and be wise. You seem like an excellent chap, and I wish we could sit down and have a coffee, because I'd love to hear more. But I also wouldn't want anything to happen to you.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu May 11, 2017 12:53 pm

What is this nonsense about 'muslim IQ'? IQ tests are pseudoscience at best. And I certainly wouldn't be judging 'IQ' on how many Nobels a country has won. Nobels are more about the amount of money a country has to put into research. Most of them have been won by the US. I suppose that must mean the average 'IQ' there is the highest :roll: Your English is amazing. Just like a native speaker (better than most).
Something smells a bit fishy here. :? Although to be fair you haven't actually said that you live in a country where being openly 'atheist' is illegal.

ForCruxSake
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by ForCruxSake » Thu May 11, 2017 1:12 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Seleucus wrote: Where I'm at at the moment is when I discuss philosophically with a close colleague, we make sure the door is closed so we aren't overheard. ...
Be careful and be wise. You seem like an excellent chap, and I wish we could sit down and have a coffee, because I'd love to hear more. But I also wouldn't want anything to happen to you.
Now I'm curious as to what could possibly happen to him if sat down to have coffee with you? Caffeine poisoning?

:?

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Seleucus
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Seleucus » Thu May 11, 2017 1:23 pm

ForCruxSake wrote:Naziism is about the supremacy of an Aryan race which seeks to either cleanse and eradicate, or enslave, those of other races.
The order goes like this:

Muslims
Christians
Jews
Other "people of the book"
Other monotheists (Druze, Baha'i, etc)
Pagans (Hindus) and animists.
Heretics (Shia, Amadiya, Khawarij, etc) and atheists.

While the Qur'an only permits enslaving non-Muslims, scholars believe the majority of Ottoman period slaves were none-the-less actually Muslims.
ForCruxSake wrote:Islam isn't calling fur a global caliphate.

Many are.
ForCruxSake wrote:it's practised in a few Muslim countries, in Africa, so to me it's not even a Muslim practise,
I live a long way from Africa and it is being practiced here on an extensive scale.
ForCruxSake wrote:Outside of Islamic countries, these become a choice for Muslims.
Easy to say for someone who presumably hasn't had her clitoris and labia cut off.
ForCruxSake wrote:Kosher and halal practises are also practises I have no problems with.
Watch what happens on Eid al-Adha morning and then say that.
ForCruxSake wrote:People are aware of the sound of Adhan.
I'm listening to it right now. It's not charming, it's an old man hollering. It booms for hours on end. I'm woken by it at 3 AM every morning. On Fridays it can go for eight hours. On holidays for 24 hours straight.

You can easily confirm what I'm telling you by googling phrases like "female genital mutilation malaysia", "loud mosques" "idul adha sacrifice google images", "worldwide caliphate", or "5:51".
Last edited by Seleucus on Thu May 11, 2017 2:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Seleucus » Thu May 11, 2017 1:57 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:Although to be fair you haven't actually said that you live in a country where being openly 'atheist' is illegal.
I live in a country where atheism is illegal. My documents say I am a Muslim. Alcohol is not banned at the national level but many cities and regions do ban it, thankfully last year I moved to a new house so I now live in an alcohol permitted zone; I'm going to have a Tom Collins and have some pork-free pepperoni pizza and watch a Korean movie, The Good, the Bad, the Weird, after finishing typing this. Pork is available at some grocery stores. I ate a ham sandwich last year at lunch to celebrate the first day of the Ramadan fast. Eating in the daytime during Ramadan is actually illegal in some cities here, but not mine. Restaurants do cover their windows though, and, not joking, TV censors out eating and drinking for the whole month. Unfortunately all spas are closed during Ramadan, I really love contrast-hydrotherapy (hot-cold) so that is a big drag. Any other questions?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:IQ tests are pseudoscience at best.
Sure, I just threw Templer in for a laugh. My real view about the decline of Islamic civilization is sort of Existentialist, it goes like this:

The Middle-East was under the domination of one empire after another, the Akkadians, the Neo-Assyrians, the Seleucids, the Byzantines, the Fatimids and so on. Imperialism degrades it's subject's initiative. There was an elite and serf class (inherited from Diocletian). In addition there were long periods of Arab supremacy, there was institutionalized inferiority of women, as well a hierarchy in which Muslims were on top, the Christians and Jews beneath, pagans under them and so on. Add also the unusual institution of White slave armies, the Mamluks and Janissaries were the true rulers of Islamic civilization from about 900 until the twilight of the Ottomans, either de facto or in right as during the Mamluk sultanate of Cairo or Delhi. And a White caliph too, since caliphs did not marry but bore descendants from their White slave harems. Even slavery was unequal, Blacks being the inferior and used primarily for agriculture. Eunuchs had their place also. All those layers of superiority and unfreedom degraded morale and the civilization basically died of depression.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu May 11, 2017 3:24 pm

ForCruxSake wrote: Now I'm curious as to what could possibly happen to him if sat down to have coffee with you? Caffeine poisoning?

:?
Nothing...unless the coffee was really, really bad. :wink:

ForCruxSake
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by ForCruxSake » Thu May 11, 2017 3:27 pm

Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Naziism is about the supremacy of an Aryan race which seeks to either cleanse and eradicate, or enslave, those of other races.
The order goes like this:

Muslims
Christians
Jews
Other "people of the book"
Other monotheists (Druze, Baha'i, etc)
Pagans (Hindus) and animists.
Heretics (Shia, Amadiya, Khawarij, etc) and atheists.

While the Qur'an only permits enslaving non-Muslims, scholars believe the majority of Ottoman period slaves were actually Muslims.
Thanks for the history lesson, I thought that by bringing up Nazism, you were talking about more modern times. I was.

I don't think Islam is seeking to take over the world or attempting to ideologically enslave others. A few crazy people may be giving this impression but generally Muslims are just going about their business,
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Islam isn't calling fur a global caliphate.

Many are.
Would you care to put a number to how many of the 53 countries that have a Muslim population of 50+% are calling for a Caliphate? Some may be, MANY aren't. We'll just to have agree to disagree on that, until you can provide more compelling proof than "Many are."
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:it's practised in a few Muslim countries, in Africa, so to me it's not even a Muslim practise,
I live a long way from Africa and it is being practiced here on an extensive scale.
You're right. Looking at the it's more prevalent than I thought: It's practised in 30 countries out of 53 countries mentioned earlier.

The African countries have the highest percentage of cases but by no means does this reflect Islam... It reflects cultural practise.

In Indonesia, an Islamic country with the world's largest Muslim population, it's been banned by law. So again, FGM reflects cultural practise more than religion, as far as I'm concerned.
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Kosher and halal practises are also practises I have no problems with.
Watch what happens on Eid al-Adha morning and then say that.
Would you be surprised to know I have.

It's my belief that if we are going to eat meat, we have an obligation to know how to kill and prepare that meat. It's a lazy society that expects everyone to naively think animals fall into plastic wrapping, in pieces, to end up on supermarket shelves.
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Outside of Islamic countries, these become a choice for Muslims.
Easy to say for someone who presumably hasn't had her clitoris and labia cut off.
Low blow, to which I can only answer: "Well, no Muslim woman I have ever even known to date, has had that done to her, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance" without wishing to reduce the sense of outrage, as to what is a clearly a horrific CULTURAL practise in SOME Muslim countries.

(Shocking retorts don't lend veracity to your argument against Islam.)
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:People are aware of the sound of Adhan.
I'm listening to it right now. It's not beautiful, it's an old man hollering. It booms for hours on end. I'm woken by it at 3 AM every morning. On Fridays it goes from ten hours. On holidays for 24 hours straight.
.

I've been to Eygpt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Whilst I appreciate it may be like an alarm clock going off, I don't think it sounds that bad. I'm fine with it. In some places I've been to its sounded beautiful. It's just your opinion. Some might love it. Some committed Muslims here, I know, seem to have it on their TV, and phones. They WANT the sound of the call to prayer. It's unfortunate that you hate it.

It may well be that in an Islamic country your hatred of the adhan is outnumbered by those that love the sound of it or need it, if only to get to prayer on time.

Sounds like you need to leave the country instead of just learning to hate it, I appreciate that might be difficult. Perhaps use your academic prowess and skills of persuasion to change the system from the inside?
Seleucus wrote:You can easily confirm what I'm telling you by googling phrases like "female genital mutilation malaysia", "loud mosques" "idul adha sacrifice google images", "worldwide caliphate", or "5:51".
Maybe you should provide the proofs for the things you claim instead of expecting me to do the work for you.

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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Harbal » Thu May 11, 2017 5:57 pm

ForCruxSake wrote:Some committed Muslims here, I know, seem to have it on their TV, and phones. They WANT the sound of the call to prayer. It's unfortunate that you hate it.
Particularly as he seems not to have a choice about being subjected to it. Of course, if you think he's making a fuss about nothing he should just shut up and learn to like it.

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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu May 11, 2017 8:53 pm

Harbal wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Some committed Muslims here, I know, seem to have it on their TV, and phones. They WANT the sound of the call to prayer. It's unfortunate that you hate it.
Particularly as he seems not to have a choice about being subjected to it. Of course, if you think he's making a fuss about nothing he should just shut up and learn to like it.
I wonder how long it will be before we are all subjected to it thundering through the streets from gigantic subwoofers?

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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Harbal » Thu May 11, 2017 9:02 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: I wonder how long it will be before we are all subjected to it thundering through the streets from gigantic subwoofers?
I wonder how it would go down in Iran if folks were woken one Sunday morning by the sound of the Salvation Army blasting out Onward Christian Soldiers.

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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu May 11, 2017 9:03 pm

ForCruxSake wrote:
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Naziism is about the supremacy of an Aryan race which seeks to either cleanse and eradicate, or enslave, those of other races.
The order goes like this:

Muslims
Christians
Jews
Other "people of the book"
Other monotheists (Druze, Baha'i, etc)
Pagans (Hindus) and animists.
Heretics (Shia, Amadiya, Khawarij, etc) and atheists.

While the Qur'an only permits enslaving non-Muslims, scholars believe the majority of Ottoman period slaves were actually Muslims.
Thanks for the history lesson, I thought that by bringing up Nazism, you were talking about more modern times. I was.

I don't think Islam is seeking to take over the world or attempting to ideologically enslave others. A few crazy people may be giving this impression but generally Muslims are just going about their business,
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Islam isn't calling fur a global caliphate.

Many are.
Would you care to put a number to how many of the 53 countries that have a Muslim population of 50+% are calling for a Caliphate? Some may be, MANY aren't. We'll just to have agree to disagree on that, until you can provide more compelling proof than "Many are."
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:it's practised in a few Muslim countries, in Africa, so to me it's not even a Muslim practise,
I live a long way from Africa and it is being practiced here on an extensive scale.
You're right. Looking at the it's more prevalent than I thought: It's practised in 30 countries out of 53 countries mentioned earlier.

The African countries have the highest percentage of cases but by no means does this reflect Islam... It reflects cultural practise.

In Indonesia, an Islamic country with the world's largest Muslim population, it's been banned by law. So again, FGM reflects cultural practise more than religion, as far as I'm concerned.
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Kosher and halal practises are also practises I have no problems with.
Watch what happens on Eid al-Adha morning and then say that.
Would you be surprised to know I have.

It's my belief that if we are going to eat meat, we have an obligation to know how to kill and prepare that meat. It's a lazy society that expects everyone to naively think animals fall into plastic wrapping, in pieces, to end up on supermarket shelves.
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Outside of Islamic countries, these become a choice for Muslims.
Easy to say for someone who presumably hasn't had her clitoris and labia cut off.
Low blow, to which I can only answer: "Well, no Muslim woman I have ever even known to date, has had that done to her, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance" without wishing to reduce the sense of outrage, as to what is a clearly a horrific CULTURAL practise in SOME Muslim countries.

(Shocking retorts don't lend veracity to your argument against Islam.)
Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:People are aware of the sound of Adhan.
I'm listening to it right now. It's not beautiful, it's an old man hollering. It booms for hours on end. I'm woken by it at 3 AM every morning. On Fridays it goes from ten hours. On holidays for 24 hours straight.
.

I've been to Eygpt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Whilst I appreciate it may be like an alarm clock going off, I don't think it sounds that bad. I'm fine with it. In some places I've been to its sounded beautiful. It's just your opinion. Some might love it. Some committed Muslims here, I know, seem to have it on their TV, and phones. They WANT the sound of the call to prayer. It's unfortunate that you hate it.

It may well be that in an Islamic country your hatred of the adhan is outnumbered by those that love the sound of it or need it, if only to get to prayer on time.

Sounds like you need to leave the country instead of just learning to hate it, I appreciate that might be difficult. Perhaps use your academic prowess and skills of persuasion to change the system from the inside?
Seleucus wrote:You can easily confirm what I'm telling you by googling phrases like "female genital mutilation malaysia", "loud mosques" "idul adha sacrifice google images", "worldwide caliphate", or "5:51".
Maybe you should provide the proofs for the things you claim instead of expecting me to do the work for you.
It's interesting the way you flippantly dismiss all of his complaints, even suggesting he leave (which might not even be possible). And does it occur to you that muslims love their countries? You say you know lots of Somalians. Somalian women are 'genitally modified' possibly without exception.

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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Seleucus » Fri May 12, 2017 4:34 am

ForCruxSake wrote:Would you care to put a number to how many of the 53 countries that have a Muslim population of 50+% are calling for a Caliphate?
What we do have good research data on is the number of Muslims in First World countries like the UK and Canada who support Sharia law, who believe suicide bombing is justified, or who oppose homosexual rights. We also have reasonable election data from come Muslim countries on the number of voters who supported Islamist candidates (where there were other options). In both cases, numbers do go over fifty percent.
ForCruxSake wrote:The African countries have the highest percentage of cases but by no means does this reflect Islam... It reflects cultural practise.
Sierra Leone, Djibouti, Guinea, and Somalia, the four Black African countries with the highest rates of FGM are all 90% Muslim or more. It may very well go back to an older cultural habit the way male circumcision can be traced back to Egypt?
ForCruxSake wrote:In Indonesia, an Islamic country with the world's largest Muslim population, it's been banned by law. So again, FGM reflects cultural practise more than religion, as far as I'm concerned.
It is estimated FGM has been done to as many as 50% of girls in Indonesia, in some regions such as Central Java, with its strong Salafist influence, nearly all. It was banned again in 2014 after being re-legalized in 2010, after it was banned it the first time in 2006. You need to add some terms to your search such as "female genital mutilation Jakarta post 2016" or "2017" to get a better picture. Seeing as Islamism is rapidly on the rise in Indonesia, you may know of recent electoral and judicial developments, this situation is likely to get worse.
Seleucus wrote:as to what is a clearly a horrific CULTURAL practise in SOME Muslim countries.
Thankful Trump has started prosecuting Muslim doctors who do this to little girls.

Since I believe from what you said that we agree that FGM is terrible, no need to push this point further.
ForCruxSake wrote:Would you be surprised to know I have.
What I have observed is the butchery is cruel, and also very awful is the the treatment of animals leading up to Eid al-Adha. I don't identify as Christian, but at least their second biggest holiday has a nice symbolic treasure hunt of chocolate eggs for children; but with Muslims, it is slitting animals' throats -- as a symbol of God's relationship to humans. That's sacrifice. Sacrifice is different from slaughter.
ForCruxSake wrote:It may well be that in an Islamic country your hatred of the adhan is outnumbered by those that love the sound of it or need it, if only to get to prayer on time.
The amazingly tolerant Israelis are finally moving to ban this noise after sixty years of putting up with it. Having talked to many people about this and having read the law as well and written a lot of emails, I know that 5 minutes 5 times a day on non-holidays is what is legally permitted. What is actually happening is endless blaring. Religiously I'm a quietist, I believe the sublime lives in the silence. Muhammad himself came to enlightenment by way of sitting in silence alone in a cave. But in religious Islam, monasticism is banned, and prayer is done in groups to a lot of noise. That maintains religion and prevents enlightenment happening. When I speak to anyone about this, everyone is initially surprised. But what I've found is the only people who do not agree that is is obnoxious have big beards. Based on my informal survey, at least four-fifths of people find it awful and don't want to hear it, but since no one wants their house burnt down, appeasement tends to be the policy.
ForCruxSake wrote:Sounds like you need to leave the country instead of just learning to hate it, I appreciate that might be difficult. Perhaps use your academic prowess and skills of persuasion to change the system from the inside?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:even suggesting he leave (which might not even be possible). And does it occur to you that muslims love their countries
I wanted to address this earlier before the discussion went totally off topic and refrained, but I'll respond now that it has.

Homosexuality is punishable in nearly all Muslim countries. Even in the supposedly tolerant ones which are now sliding rapidly towards Islamism it is stigmatized and persecuted. Britain, or Canada, for example simply cannot welcome all gay Muslims as refugees. The number of gay Muslims is greater than the population of these countries. It is necessary for the West to intervene in foreign countries. The West needs to pressure, fund institutions (such as philosophy faculties) and even put men and women on the ground to protect people living there. That would be humanitarian. At the end of the colonial period Western people lost their inspiration to improve the countries which are by comparison backwards, but it is as important now as it was a century ago to show leadership and assist development. Maybe more so as the hope the 3rd World had that the end of colonialism would usher in an era of freedom and development fades and the realities of stagnation set in and reactionary forces pull the 3rd World rapidly backwards.

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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri May 12, 2017 6:56 am

Seleucus wrote:
ForCruxSake wrote:Would you care to put a number to how many of the 53 countries that have a Muslim population of 50+% are calling for a Caliphate?
What we do have good research data on is the number of Muslims in First World countries like the UK and Canada who support Sharia law, who believe suicide bombing is justified, or who oppose homosexual rights. We also have reasonable election data from come Muslim countries on the number of voters who supported Islamist candidates (where there were other options). In both cases, numbers do go over fifty percent.
ForCruxSake wrote:The African countries have the highest percentage of cases but by no means does this reflect Islam... It reflects cultural practise.
Sierra Leone, Djibouti, Guinea, and Somalia, the four Black African countries with the highest rates of FGM are all 90% Muslim or more. It may very well go back to an older cultural habit the way male circumcision can be traced back to Egypt?
ForCruxSake wrote:In Indonesia, an Islamic country with the world's largest Muslim population, it's been banned by law. So again, FGM reflects cultural practise more than religion, as far as I'm concerned.
It is estimated FGM has been done to as many as 50% of girls in Indonesia, in some regions such as Central Java, with its strong Salafist influence, nearly all. It was banned again in 2014 after being re-legalized in 2010, after it was banned it the first time in 2006. You need to add some terms to your search such as "female genital mutilation Jakarta post 2016" or "2017" to get a better picture. Seeing as Islamism is rapidly on the rise in Indonesia, you may know of recent electoral and judicial developments, this situation is likely to get worse.
Seleucus wrote:as to what is a clearly a horrific CULTURAL practise in SOME Muslim countries.
Thankful Trump has started prosecuting Muslim doctors who do this to little girls.

Since I believe from what you said that we agree that FGM is terrible, no need to push this point further.
ForCruxSake wrote:Would you be surprised to know I have.
What I have observed is the butchery is cruel, and also very awful is the the treatment of animals leading up to Eid al-Adha. I don't identify as Christian, but at least their second biggest holiday has a nice symbolic treasure hunt of chocolate eggs for children; but with Muslims, it is slitting animals' throats -- as a symbol of God's relationship to humans. That's sacrifice. Sacrifice is different from slaughter.
ForCruxSake wrote:It may well be that in an Islamic country your hatred of the adhan is outnumbered by those that love the sound of it or need it, if only to get to prayer on time.
The amazingly tolerant Israelis are finally moving to ban this noise after sixty years of putting up with it. Having talked to many people about this and having read the law as well and written a lot of emails, I know that 5 minutes 5 times a day on non-holidays is what is legally permitted. What is actually happening is endless blaring. Religiously I'm a quietist, I believe the sublime lives in the silence. Muhammad himself came to enlightenment by way of sitting in silence alone in a cave. But in religious Islam, monasticism is banned, and prayer is done in groups to a lot of noise. That maintains religion and prevents enlightenment happening. When I speak to anyone about this, everyone is initially surprised. But what I've found is the only people who do not agree that is is obnoxious have big beards. Based on my informal survey, at least four-fifths of people find it awful and don't want to hear it, but since no one wants their house burnt down, appeasement tends to be the policy.
ForCruxSake wrote:Sounds like you need to leave the country instead of just learning to hate it, I appreciate that might be difficult. Perhaps use your academic prowess and skills of persuasion to change the system from the inside?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:even suggesting he leave (which might not even be possible). And does it occur to you that muslims love their countries
I wanted to address this earlier before the discussion went totally off topic and refrained, but I'll respond now that it has.

Homosexuality is punishable in nearly all Muslim countries. Even in the supposedly tolerant ones which are now sliding rapidly towards Islamism it is stigmatized and persecuted. Britain, or Canada, for example simply cannot welcome all gay Muslims as refugees. The number of gay Muslims is greater than the population of these countries. It is necessary for the West to intervene in foreign countries. The West needs to pressure, fund institutions (such as philosophy faculties) and even put men and women on the ground to protect people living there. That would be humanitarian. At the end of the colonial period Western people lost their inspiration to improve the countries which are by comparison backwards, but it is as important now as it was a century ago to show leadership and assist development. Maybe more so as the hope the 3rd World had that the end of colonialism would usher in an era of freedom and development fades and the realities of stagnation set in and reactionary forces pull the 3rd World rapidly backwards.
What do you mean 'put men and women on the ground'? You come across as full of crap.

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Seleucus
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Re: Should I discuss atheism and religion on an online philosophy forum if I live in a country where atheism is illegal

Post by Seleucus » Fri May 12, 2017 8:01 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:You come across as full of crap.
I need respect. I'm not going to reply to someone who quotes eighteen-hundred words of text and makes an insulting one-liner. I've had the decency to use "I statements" throughout this discussion and I expect the same to be reciprocated.

In answer to what I believe may be being asked asking about, and I won't bother to reply in the future to someone who is so rude and lazy, it would be better to have peace keepers and other experts, for example layers, professors, doctors, police trainers, and so on go to, say Indonesia, to protect gay Muslims from persecution, than it would be to accept 10 million gay Indonesian Muslims as refugee claimants to the UK. Persecution of homosexuals in Indonesia is obviously not a consequence of colonial aggression, racism, White privilege and so on which indeed were elements of the colonial period. The guilty reluctance Western people have to get involved in improving the 3rd world after their withdrawal from colonization is perhaps understandable but actually misguided as the developing world is seriously in need of leadership and assistance.
Last edited by Seleucus on Fri May 12, 2017 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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