WAR & PEACE

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Darkstar
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:51 pm

WAR & PEACE

Post by Darkstar » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:44 pm

It seems that we spend more on weapons, war-fighting and training for war than we do on diplomacy and peacemaking.

Do you think we humans can ever avoid war? Do you think it just comes down to the winner's rape and murder of wives and children and how to stop that? Having to fight because giving your family to the enemy is too unbearable?

Are we stuck with war? Or do we mistake defence for war and attack to prevent being attacked?

An exponential increase in weapon effectiveness is not matched by an exponential increase in diplomatic efforts. You can see that by looking at the way the Blair government dumped the Arabists at the FCO. No-one who loves war so much dares to allow the gainsayers to speak out.

Would you welcome a massive increase in the FCO budget and a proportional reduction in the MOD budget - or is that Fantasy Island?

Dalek Prime
Posts: 4922
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Living in a tree with Polly.

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:29 am

Might makes right. If I can take your resources, I will. And you can't stop me, or complain much... That is the world, in essence.

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 3308
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Lacewing » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:28 am

I think war is due to a primitive way of thinking. Even if there might always be some primitive-thinkers who choose such a behavior, I don't think they will necessarily remain the majority or controlling class. Humankind can surely evolve to see with a more collective understanding and value system. PEOPLE first... before land and religion and material stuff. Seeing ALL as sacred. Cooperation and respect more than selfish agendas. Seems possible to me. :)

User avatar
TSBU
Posts: 824
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:46 pm

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by TSBU » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:16 pm

Darkstar wrote:It seems that we spend more on weapons, war-fighting and training for war than we do on diplomacy and peacemaking.

Do you think we humans can ever avoid war? Do you think it just comes down to the winner's rape and murder of wives and children and how to stop that? Having to fight because giving your family to the enemy is too unbearable?

Are we stuck with war? Or do we mistake defence for war and attack to prevent being attacked?

An exponential increase in weapon effectiveness is not matched by an exponential increase in diplomatic efforts. You can see that by looking at the way the Blair government dumped the Arabists at the FCO. No-one who loves war so much dares to allow the gainsayers to speak out.

Would you welcome a massive increase in the FCO budget and a proportional reduction in the MOD budget - or is that Fantasy Island?
Humans are not goverment. They will fight forever, and they will have forever the feelings that make people go to an army (I'm with a group, I'm one of them, I'm protected, accepted, I'll kill for this, we are the good, they are the bad), and there will always be humans fucking other humans with or without guns... they may see better ways of using them than throwing them to war in the future though.
If conflict disappear, they won't be humans any longer, it's a change big enough to say that.

Dalek Prime
Posts: 4922
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Living in a tree with Polly.

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:46 pm

Lacewing wrote:I think war is due to a primitive way of thinking. Even if there might always be some primitive-thinkers who choose such a behavior, I don't think they will necessarily remain the majority or controlling class. Humankind can surely evolve to see with a more collective understanding and value system. PEOPLE first... before land and religion and material stuff. Seeing ALL as sacred. Cooperation and respect more than selfish agendas. Seems possible to me. :)
Actually, if humans (homo sapien sapien) evolve, they won't be what they are now. So technically, you may have to wait for a new species to be more cooperative and respectful of their own, after we've been left in the dust.

Dalek Prime
Posts: 4922
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Living in a tree with Polly.

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:49 pm

TSBU wrote:
Darkstar wrote:It seems that we spend more on weapons, war-fighting and training for war than we do on diplomacy and peacemaking.

Do you think we humans can ever avoid war? Do you think it just comes down to the winner's rape and murder of wives and children and how to stop that? Having to fight because giving your family to the enemy is too unbearable?

Are we stuck with war? Or do we mistake defence for war and attack to prevent being attacked?

An exponential increase in weapon effectiveness is not matched by an exponential increase in diplomatic efforts. You can see that by looking at the way the Blair government dumped the Arabists at the FCO. No-one who loves war so much dares to allow the gainsayers to speak out.

Would you welcome a massive increase in the FCO budget and a proportional reduction in the MOD budget - or is that Fantasy Island?
Humans are not goverment. They will fight forever, and they will have forever the feelings that make people go to an army (I'm with a group, I'm one of them, I'm protected, accepted, I'll kill for this, we are the good, they are the bad), and there will always be humans fucking other humans with or without guns... they may see better ways of using them than throwing them to war in the future though.
If conflict disappear, they won't be humans any longer, it's a change big enough to say that.
Oh, I didn't see this response when I posted. I agree, TSBU.

Dalek Prime
Posts: 4922
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Living in a tree with Polly.

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:50 pm

Lacewing wrote:I think war is due to a primitive way of thinking. Even if there might always be some primitive-thinkers who choose such a behavior, I don't think they will necessarily remain the majority or controlling class. Humankind can surely evolve to see with a more collective understanding and value system. PEOPLE first... before land and religion and material stuff. Seeing ALL as sacred. Cooperation and respect more than selfish agendas. Seems possible to me. :)
Btw, aren't animals technically primitive thinkers? They don't cause wars.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 5187
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:18 pm

Dal,

Ever seen red ants and black ants go at it?

That's war, and for much the same reasons we war.

Only difference: the ants don't cogitate and worry and dress it up in language the way we do.

User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 3308
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Lacewing » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:03 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
Lacewing wrote:I think war is due to a primitive way of thinking.
Btw, aren't animals technically primitive thinkers?
No! :D

Animals use their thinking skills fully and efficiently for the lives they lead.

Humans, on the other hand... "primitize" themselves. (I just made that up.) They are capable of much more, but they choose and perpetuate much less.

How's that for an explanation of the distinction I'm making? :)
henry quirk wrote:ants don't cogitate and worry and dress it up in language the way we do
How do you know that? I bet they're CURSING in ant language!

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 5187
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:11 pm

Actually ants do communicate chemically...'goddamn motherfucker!' is one of the more common chemical signatures they use along with 'eat them! eat them all!'.

Impenitent
Posts: 2399
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Impenitent » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:10 am


ken
Posts: 2075
Joined: Mon May 09, 2016 4:14 am

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by ken » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:03 am

Darkstar wrote:It seems that we spend more on weapons, war-fighting and training for war than we do on diplomacy and peacemaking.
Peacemaking actually does not cost one cent, so any cent spent on weapons, war-fighting, and training for war IS MORE than is necessary.
Darkstar wrote:Do you think we humans can ever avoid war?
Yes. To avoid any and all wars is very easy, very simple, and can be done very quickly if any person REALLY wants to learn how to do it.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8182
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:40 am

Plenty of countries exist peacefully and co-exist happily with their neighbours, so of course it's possible. People only need to learn to think critically, and stop believing the bullshit that self-serving politicians and the equally self-serving mass-media feed them.

Darkstar
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:51 pm

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by Darkstar » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:39 am

Wow! As a newbie I didn't know I'd get any response let alone the strongly felt reactions in all your posts. Thanks very much. Personally I hope that we can overcome our natural tendencies to possess more and more. The centuries preceding the 17th were marked by superstition, witchcraft and alchemy and then an age of reason seemed to emerge but the enlightenment did not preclude war.

Now it is time for a new age of reason lead by strong philosophy - otherwise we will be lost as a species I think. Recent books on human evolution are very pessimistic about us. That strong philosophy - in my view - has to require far better diplomatic and negotiating skills than we possess at present - and either new structures for world peace - or better funding and management of the existing ones.

All the very best for 2017 to you all.

osgart
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

Re: WAR & PEACE

Post by osgart » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:38 am

givers make not so takers can war to take. The War hungry only destroy the quality of life for all. Givers are strong enough to preserve and defend against war mongerers. Thats why civilization exists in some places. Like America. Thats why prosperity still exists though undermined by greed. You take fairness for all law away you have just made us all a warring destitute nation and the quality of life dies and violence rises.
So there is the truth of the giver .dEstroy that love and you destroy everyone.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests