Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

[Ned]

This topic is closely related to the other thread under discussion right now: “Do we owe each other anything?”

Well, I am biased on this issue, because I am one of the poor and live on a very modest government pension. We are listed way under the poverty line and, without the extra income from our small online book business, we would barely manage.

I keep hearing more and more often from every direction that we the baby-boomers (the aging population) will break the bank and make younger people pay higher taxes, as if we had not raised them, put them through school, started them in life AND paid a lot of taxes ourselves into our healthcare and pension system, the money which is being gambled away in questionable mutual funds and undefined derivatives by our leaders. However, 16 billion for fighter planes and 1.2 Billion for pointless 2-day Gxx meetings (in Canada) are, apparently, affordable.

So, my question is: should bleeding-heart-liberals be allowed to FORCE others (by enacting progressive tax laws) to help those who need help?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the inordinately wealthy?



Do we have the right to tax people in order to kill people?



Do we have the right to tax people in order to oppress people?




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[vegetariantaxidermy]

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Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the inordinately wealthy?



Do we have the right to tax people in order to kill people?



Do we have the right to tax people in order to oppress people?




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Good response.

[Ned]

. Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the inordinately wealthy? Do we have the right to tax people in order to kill people?Do we have the right to tax people in order to oppress people? .

I am sure a LOT of people (not me) will disagree with you. I just want to hear the reasons for pro and con.

[Ned]

I have been told by conservatives (I wonder what they are conserving?) that "it was my responsibility to provide for my old age and, if I wasn't responsible enough to do that, I have no right to force others to pay for my mistakes and shortsightedness. The only help I could count on was charity from softhearted people."

I am playing devil's advocate here, because I know what the perfect answer to this beauty of an argument is, but I would like to hear it from others first.

Remember the basic philosophical principle of Ayn Rand, I cited in the other thread:

"No one has the right to force another human being to do anything against his/her own (perceived) self interest. If we allow a human being to ‘initiate’ force against another, to force him act against his/her interests, then we have approved of dictatorships of the worst kind. This applies to forcing others to act on your compassion"

So, how would you reply to that, in a logical and rational way (never mind telling me why you hate Ayn Rand).

Corollary to the original question: If you allow force (laws) to be used in order to force the well off to help the poor -- where do you draw the line? Based on what principle, what criteria? That's where it gets real sticky!

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Ayn Rand Railed Against Government Benefits, But Grabbed Social Security and Medicare When She Needed Them



Anyone who is honest in this life will realize that no matter what you have or don't have - our fortunes are totally fate.

There is no self-made ANYTHING. Luck & fate.


...our ability to feel or express empathy may also be an act of fate.





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[vegetariantaxidermy]

So-called 'libertarians' are just self-serving people-haters.

[Ned]

. Ayn Rand Railed Against Government Benefits, But Grabbed Social Security and Medicare When She Needed Them. Anyone who is honest in this life will realize that no matter what you have or don't have - our fortunes are totally fate. There is no self-made ANYTHING. Luck & fate. ...our ability to feel or express empathy may also be an act of fate..

...and that gives us the right to force people to be charitable?

...and, if yes, how charitable?

...where do you draw the line?

(devil's advocate again...)

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Bill, it looks like you are one of the privileged few on here who haven't been added to his lordship's ignore list. I didn't notice that stuffed-in-the-head ned started the thread.

[David Handeye]

no, we have no right, we have obligation to pay taxes, there's a huge difference

[vegetariantaxidermy]

no, we have no right, we have obligation to pay taxes, there's a huge difference

Interesting perspective.

[Skip]

Who is "We"?
What is government, for whom does it exist and what are its mandates?
All governments must collect taxes and have that right. For a constitutional form of government, its functions, responsibilities, agencies and means of raising the necessary revenue are set out in black on white. How the distribution of obligations and benefits change over time is down to a legislative process that's also laid down by the constitution. The specifics are contested at every election, but the principles and mechanics are constant.... or should be.




How come there are poor citizens in a prosperous society and what is meant by 'helping'?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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I perceive Canada as being much more social and affording to their disadvantaged citizens than America.


What does you book business consist of?



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[David Handeye]

no, we have no right, we have obligation to pay taxes, there's a huge difference

Interesting perspective.

lol in fact we have no right to tax anyone, the only right we have, is to be taxed. I mean if we could choose, shall we decide to pay taxes for whatever reason that could be? Shall we have such a noble behaviour? I think if we were to choose, anyone would have their own justified reasons to avoid to pay taxes in order to help whoever they could be, that's the reason why paying taxes is not a right of ours, that's an obligation, a civil obligation. If it was a right, many would "kindly" decline. Paying taxes is seen by most taxpayers as an advantage of their own, for example for their retirement pension, rather than a help for indigent people. My opinion.

[Ned]

How come there are poor citizens in a prosperous society and what is meant by 'helping'?

It was an ethical question, not a legal one. The mechanism of legislation, laws, constitution, etc. are irrelevant to this thread.

I will bring it down to the personal level.

I was asking 2 questions:

1./ How do you feel about someone forcing you (by enacting tax laws) to help others you never met?
2./ If you think some force is justified, on what principle should the magnitude/extent of this force be based on (or you go along with arbitrarily selected limits) ?

Your question I quoted above is a valid question, but it should be discussed in another thread.