Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

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John K
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:26 pm

Tusok wrote:Gentlemen,

The disdain you all seem to have for one of our oldest and most refined professions alarms me.

The properly disposed military is what fundamentally keeps us safe to play on the internet and enjoy our back yards without fear.

Some of the finest people of the best character who have ever lived have donned the uniform of their nation, and worn it proudly.

Contrary to what many of you seem to feel, entering the military does not mean sacrificing your values or ethics. It generally leads to strengthening them. Most decisions in the military are in fact of the highest standard. Where they fail is only where humanity fails - and you will find that fault in every single profession that has ever existed.

Tusok

PS - There may be someone working for the court who is a marshal, but in the military, justice is always handed out through Court Martial. Martial is another word for military. There is no acceptable alternative words for this court.
The irony of the original post is who counters these "unethical" soldiers? More unethical soldiers? Vladimir Lenin wasn't afraid to crack a few skulls, all for an ideology. But it sure sounded good for a while... Too bad he (and Marx) didn't read their Schopenhauer; or if they did, they didn't understand it.

John K
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:38 pm

Ned wrote: In any other profession you can quit when you disagree with the orders.
Even for unconventional and illegal professions like drug dealing? Sure, you can "quit," but you'll soon be dead. Informal 'orders' can have some very dire consequences when broken. Apples to oranges argument? Maybe, maybe not, but it's part of the real world.

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HexHammer
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by HexHammer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:59 am

John K wrote:
HexHammer wrote:...the real peacemaker is trade.
What's the easiest way to acquire goods? Produce them? Harvest them? No. The easiest way to get stuff is to steal it. Just ask the Spaniards; they let the civilizations of South America mine the gold, gather the silver, and once the hard work was completed, stole it. But wait, the Spanish were often outdone by other Western powers who stole their booty and their ships. Your trade as a peacemaker model may work for a while, since the parties involved must be at peace for trade to occur. Upon closer inspection however, we find nothing can be further than the truth. Who was Japan's leading trading partner during the early twentieth century? The very same nation that was attacked by Japan. What bigger power keg of potential conflict is there than trade? "You ripped me off!" or "You didn't pay your debt!" The Tupinamba (coastal people of today's Brazil) traded with their inland enemies during agreed upon truces, then fought the very same people they traded with weeks before. This cycle of war and barter seems endless, and is repeated throughout history.
Dude, that is crazy talk, we live in modern times with trade laws.

Sheesh.

thedoc
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by thedoc » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:12 am

HexHammer wrote: Dude, that is crazy talk, we live in modern times with trade laws.

Sheesh.
Are you saying these reports of Pirates are just fiction?

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HexHammer
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by HexHammer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:17 am

thedoc wrote:
HexHammer wrote: Dude, that is crazy talk, we live in modern times with trade laws.

Sheesh.
Are you saying these reports of Pirates are just fiction?
What good is something that happend many hundrets years back, to dicuss modern values? In this contex he's producing pure babble.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:50 am

HexHammer wrote: What good is something that happend many hundrets years back, to dicuss modern values? In this contex he's producing pure babble.
So you think people don't lie, cheat and steal anymore? Does WWII ring a bell, or is that ancient history too?

thedoc
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by thedoc » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:59 am

HexHammer wrote:
thedoc wrote: Are you saying these reports of Pirates are just fiction?
What good is something that happend many hundrets years back, to dicuss modern values? In this contex he's producing pure babble.
Are you devoid of any awareness of current events? There are Pirates operating in the Persian Gulf, there have been reports of Pirates operating off east Africa, there are Pirates in south east Asia. You need to wake up to reality.

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Kayla
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by Kayla » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:38 am

i suppose it depends on the army

the usa has major recent history of wars of aggression so someone signing on either has no problem with that or is not aware of the - possibly through neglecting their moral obligation to have a clue

but if it is finland - its has never fought anything but a purely defensive war in its entire history - and there is nothing to suggest that that is about to change - so an intelligent moral person would probably have no issues joining finland's military

phyllo
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by phyllo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:01 am

Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany and fought against the Soviet Union. There seems to have been mistreatment of Soviet prisoners in POW camps and concentration camps.

Maybe there are moral issues.

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HexHammer
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by HexHammer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:15 am

John K wrote:
HexHammer wrote: What good is something that happend many hundrets years back, to dicuss modern values? In this contex he's producing pure babble.
So you think people don't lie, cheat and steal anymore? Does WWII ring a bell, or is that ancient history too?
You sidetrack the dicussion with arbitary arguments, stay focused.

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HexHammer
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by HexHammer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:18 am

thedoc wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
thedoc wrote: Are you saying these reports of Pirates are just fiction?
What good is something that happend many hundrets years back, to dicuss modern values? In this contex he's producing pure babble.
Are you devoid of any awareness of current events? There are Pirates operating in the Persian Gulf, there have been reports of Pirates operating off east Africa, there are Pirates in south east Asia. You need to wake up to reality.
I know of those pirates, but the dude spoke in general terms, and stealing isn't always the easiest way to wealth, sometimes you get u'r ass kicked in the process.

1 poor example doesn't constitute a concensus.

John K
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:08 am

HexHammer wrote:You sidetrack the dicussion with arbitary arguments, stay focused.
Can you muster a counterpoint, or is this the best you can do? It might be a bit difficult to "stay focused" with your desultory mumbo-jumbo, but I'll give it another shot. Let's start with my rebuttal of your statement "the real peacemaker is trade." Care to elaborate? Can you elaborate?

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HexHammer
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by HexHammer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:41 am

John K wrote:
HexHammer wrote:You sidetrack the dicussion with arbitary arguments, stay focused.
Can you muster a counterpoint, or is this the best you can do? It might be a bit difficult to "stay focused" with your desultory mumbo-jumbo, but I'll give it another shot. Let's start with my rebuttal of your statement "the real peacemaker is trade." Care to elaborate? Can you elaborate?
If you look back in history, Europa has been in much war, a huge internal conflict between the countries and states. Only when we settled as traders and signed treatments the trade would finally bring lasting peace between the countries.

War will usually upset a country's tradevalue thus they will avoid war to keep being higly valued. Ie if a country is carpet bombed it loses valuable factories and facilities, valuable workers and eggheads will die, which is hard to compensate for in short terms and thusly are quite devestating.

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Kayla
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by Kayla » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:41 am

phyllo wrote:Finland was an ally of Nazi Germany and fought against the Soviet Union. There seems to have been mistreatment of Soviet prisoners in POW camps and concentration camps.

Maybe there are moral issues.
finland was on the wrong end of soviet agression

at the same time as nazis invaded soviet union

so finland and nazis had the same enemy but for very different reasons so they were not allies

phyllo
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by phyllo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:16 pm

Finland was helping the Nazis. You can't avoid that fact. They could have done things differently but they made a choice to support Germany.

If an individual Finnish soldier believes that the Soviet cause is preferable to the Nazi cause then he has an ethical issue because he is being ordered to help Nazism.

There is also the ethical issue of allowing Soviet prisoners to starve in camps.

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