Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

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John K
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:16 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: I'm quite sure Marx was well aware of Schopenhauer. I'm not sure about Lenin. What part of Schopenhauer do you think they missed. And do you think that Schopenhauer's philosophy is simply a matter of fact that they simply have to accept?
What I think was misunderstood (or more likely disagreed with) by Marx regarding Schopenhauer's philosophy is this: Marx believed the human condition could be drastically improved via the ending of capitalism, while Schop's pessimism would allow no such model. I think you're quite right in saying Marx was aware of Schop, but the two camps were too far apart for anything but discord. Schop's escape from the endless vicissitudes of desire involved rejecting the very things Marx held dear.

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HexHammer
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by HexHammer » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:07 pm

Tusok wrote:... entering the military does not mean sacrificing your values or ethics. It generally leads to strengthening them. Most decisions in the military are in fact of the highest standard. Where they fail is only where humanity fails - and you will find that fault in every single profession that has ever existed


And Hex, you wrote:
I'm afraid you don't know what you are talking about.
It has only in recent decades caused more unrest, the real peacemaker is trade.
You may have been in the Dutch military, but it seems to me that in a philosophical forum you should present a sound argument. You say I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about. You care to prove that? I'm listening.

Tusok
I'm afraid you don't really know what you are talking about.

If you claim ones values and ethics are strenghtend in the military, that is pure babble, which clearly suggest you know NOTHING about groupthink, a terrible aspect of psychology which resulted in the Milgram Experiment, also other experiments has further uncoverd more aspects of Groupthink.

And no, most desitions are NOT of the highest standard, usually millions and squanderd in failed investments of useless gear, useless campaigns, we all remember Black Hawk Down ..total disaster, this illegal Iraq War with all key structures unprotected, resulting in looting and civil unrest, and how did the Afghan War go? Just as bad resulting in even more terrorism around the world, cheaper cocain and the terrorists ruling most of Afghanistan again.

You speak purely from a idyllic fairytale dream of yours.

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:28 am

John K wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: I'm quite sure Marx was well aware of Schopenhauer. I'm not sure about Lenin. What part of Schopenhauer do you think they missed. And do you think that Schopenhauer's philosophy is simply a matter of fact that they simply have to accept?
What I think was misunderstood (or more likely disagreed with) by Marx regarding Schopenhauer's philosophy is this: Marx believed the human condition could be drastically improved via the ending of capitalism, while Schop's pessimism would allow no such model. I think you're quite right in saying Marx was aware of Schop, but the two camps were too far apart for anything but discord. Schop's escape from the endless vicissitudes of desire involved rejecting the very things Marx held dear.
Oh dear. And I thought you were going to say something intelligent about Hegel, and Hegelianism.
SO what you are now saying is that not that Marx misunderstood him, but agree with me that their paths were irrelevant to each other.

makes me wonder why you bothered in the first place.

As for Schop - you miss the point about desire. He never did try to escape from it. He was a complete hedonist, and simply made himself bored of it due to the fact that he was an utterly selfish p**** with no concern for anyone but his own pleasure. It's no wonder he made himself bored as hell, when all he had for company was his own self.

As for the things Marx held dear, these were not rejected by Schop, he had little or no knowledge of them, being 30 years his senior and not working in the same field.

prof
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by prof » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:12 am

Kayla wrote:
prof wrote: The institution of war is itself immoral and unethical. Hence to participate in it is to commit an ethical fallacy.
so what should one do in the face of armed aggression?
Hi, Kayla

I recommend you read the book by David Swanson, WAR NO MORE:The case for abolition. Learn about it here: http://davidswanson.org/

Also, I like the tactics employed by the Danish Underground and by the French Underground during W.W. II. Furthermore I admire the neutrality policy of Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. They tend not to be invaded by other nations, and thus not subject to armed aggression.

Study up on what the Sanscrit term Satyagraha means. There are many occasions to use nonviolent direct action. {....not so much with the Nazis in W.W. II, perhaps, but with many others.} See: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... satyagraha
and see: http://mettacenter.org/definitions/glos ... atyagraha/

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by Tusok » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:26 am

Hex wrote: If you claim ones values and ethics are strenghtend in the military, that is pure babble, which clearly suggest you know NOTHING about groupthink, a terrible aspect of psychology which resulted in the Milgram Experiment, also other experiments has further uncoverd more aspects of Groupthink.

And no, most desitions are NOT of the highest standard, usually millions and squanderd in failed investments of useless gear, useless campaigns, we all remember Black Hawk Down ..total disaster, this illegal Iraq War with all key structures unprotected, resulting in looting and civil unrest, and how did the Afghan War go? Just as bad resulting in even more terrorism around the world, cheaper cocain and the terrorists ruling most of Afghanistan again.

You speak purely from a idyllic fairytale dream of yours.
Because you are Dutch, I can forgive you the lack of evidence or logic in your argument. Calling my words 'babble' does not make my words wrong, or yours right.

I personally know many people who are, or have been, in the US military. They are all of them extremely honorable people. This is not science, but it is my evidence. Are there unethical soldiers? Yes. But does the military make them this way? I doubt it.

It's hard to understand what you say in your second paragraph, but I'm guessing you are alluding to US military challenges. Yes, when things go wrong they make great stories. Many other operations go right, every day, but they are not newsworthy, or publicly known. However, maybe you can remember a few military operations that did go well? May I remind you of World War II? Or more recently, the two wars in Iraq? Please remind me where your Dutch military stood in these conflicts? What part of the front did they take? How many of your soldiers didn't make it back alive? Or whole?

T

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HexHammer
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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by HexHammer » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:05 am

Tusok wrote:Because you are Dutch, I can forgive you the lack of evidence or logic in your argument. Calling my words 'babble' does not make my words wrong, or yours right.

I personally know many people who are, or have been, in the US military. They are all of them extremely honorable people. This is not science, but it is my evidence. Are there unethical soldiers? Yes. But does the military make them this way? I doubt it.

It's hard to understand what you say in your second paragraph, but I'm guessing you are alluding to US military challenges. Yes, when things go wrong they make great stories. Many other operations go right, every day, but they are not newsworthy, or publicly known. However, maybe you can remember a few military operations that did go well? May I remind you of World War II? Or more recently, the two wars in Iraq? Please remind me where your Dutch military stood in these conflicts? What part of the front did they take? How many of your soldiers didn't make it back alive? Or whole?

T
You make claims without backing them up with fact, even viewing them with psychology they make absolute no sense, where did the concept of waratrocities go? Have you forgotten Abu Ghraib? Have you forgotten that 40k - 400k civilians died in colatteral damage in Iraq?

I'm not a dutchie, I'm a dane and served in the danish military where we were orderd to commit war attrocities, even when protesting.

Your words are not founded on facts from reality but the usual idyllic fairytales, please try back your words with facts, then we can make a more serious dicussion.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by thedoc » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:43 am

prof wrote: W.W. II. Furthermore I admire the neutrality policy of Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. They tend not to be invaded by other nations, and thus not subject to armed aggression.

Lets see WWII, Switzerland had it's natural defenses and really was not worth the effort to try and conquer. And if Germany really wanted the territory, they had them surrounded and could have just starved them out in time. Did neutrality really work out very well for Norway, no wait they got invaded anyway because they had something Germany wanted, Iron and sea coast. So the Vikings lost out to the Huns.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:24 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: As for Schop - you miss the point about desire. He never did try to escape from it. He was a complete hedonist, and simply made himself bored of it due to the fact that he was an utterly selfish p**** with no concern for anyone but his own pleasure. It's no wonder he made himself bored as hell, when all he had for company was his own self.
While it's true Schop loved his fine dinning and all, it's a bit of a stretch to say he didn't try to escape desire's influence. Why would he write The World as Will and Representation? It's neither here nor there whether he successfully followed his own advice.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:As for the things Marx held dear, these were not rejected by Schop, he had little or no knowledge of them, being 30 years his senior and not working in the same field.
No, the philosophies are the disconnect. Whether or not Schop personally read Marx is irrelevant. But being both German and prolific writers in the 1840's, I find it difficult to believe the two were unknown to each other. The Communist Manifesto was written in the late 40's. You think Schop didn't read it? Doubtful. It's less than 100 pages, an easy day's read.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:53 pm

prof wrote: Furthermore I admire the neutrality policy of Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. They tend not to be invaded by other nations, and thus not subject to armed aggression.
"Not subject to armed aggression?" Germany's 1940 invasion of Norway comes to mind.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:36 pm

John K wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: As for Schop - you miss the point about desire. He never did try to escape from it. He was a complete hedonist, and simply made himself bored of it due to the fact that he was an utterly selfish p**** with no concern for anyone but his own pleasure. It's no wonder he made himself bored as hell, when all he had for company was his own self.
While it's true Schop loved his fine dinning and all, it's a bit of a stretch to say he didn't try to escape desire's influence. Why would he write The World as Will and Representation? It's neither here nor there whether he successfully followed his own advice.

Hobbes' Choice wrote:As for the things Marx held dear, these were not rejected by Schop, he had little or no knowledge of them, being 30 years his senior and not working in the same field.
No, the philosophies are the disconnect. Whether or not Schop personally read Marx is irrelevant. But being both German and prolific writers in the 1840's, I find it difficult to believe the two were unknown to each other. The Communist Manifesto was written in the late 40's. You think Schop didn't read it? Doubtful. It's less than 100 pages, an easy day's read.
If I though you knew half the contents of The World as Will and Representation? I might bother to take you up on the first paragraph.
As for your second paragraph - please indicated where exactly Schop specifically rejected anything Marx said!
Of please indicate one scrap of evidence of Schop reading the Communist Manifesto, or even being aware of it.
One you have done that then you will have a right to talk about it.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:40 pm

thedoc wrote:
prof wrote: W.W. II. Furthermore I admire the neutrality policy of Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. They tend not to be invaded by other nations, and thus not subject to armed aggression.

Lets see WWII, Switzerland had it's natural defenses and really was not worth the effort to try and conquer. And if Germany really wanted the territory, they had them surrounded and could have just starved them out in time. Did neutrality really work out very well for Norway, no wait they got invaded anyway because they had something Germany wanted, Iron and sea coast. So the Vikings lost out to the Huns.
Germans are not Huns. Never were.
The fact that Germany did not invade Switzerland, as they did to Norway, had nothing to do with any difficulty of the landscape.
The Swiss bankrolled the War.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by John K » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:10 pm

John K wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: As for Schop - you miss the point about desire. He never did try to escape from it. He was a complete hedonist, and simply made himself bored of it due to the fact that he was an utterly selfish p**** with no concern for anyone but his own pleasure. It's no wonder he made himself bored as hell, when all he had for company was his own self.
While it's true Schop loved his fine dinning and all, it's a bit of a stretch to say he didn't try to escape desire's influence. Why would he write The World as Will and Representation? It's neither here nor there whether he successfully followed his own advice.
Hobbes' Choice wrote:As for the things Marx held dear, these were not rejected by Schop, he had little or no knowledge of them, being 30 years his senior and not working in the same field.
No, the philosophies are the disconnect. Whether or not Schop personally read Marx is irrelevant. But being both German and prolific writers in the 1840's, I find it difficult to believe the two were unknown to each other. The Communist Manifesto was written in the late 40's. You think Schop didn't read it? Doubtful. It's less than 100 pages, an easy day's read.
Hobbes' Choice wrote:If I though you knew half the contents of The World as Will and Representation? I might bother to take you up on the first paragraph.
"If I thought..." I'll translate that as you've probably never read it. You can't even get the title right. It's a book, not a question.
Hobbes' Choice wrote:As for your second paragraph - please indicated where exactly Schop specifically rejected anything Marx said!
Did you not understand the second sentence? I never made any such claim. In the previous sentence I said: "No, the philosophies are the disconnect." I even italicized it to avoid this misunderstanding once I realized I was talking to a brick. It's called speculation (hint: it's under 'S' in the dictionary). Reading and comprehension not a strong point?
Hobbes' Choice wrote:Of please indicate one scrap of evidence of Schop reading the Communist Manifesto, or even being aware of it.
Refer to above corrections. The statement "I find it difficult to believe..." is not the indicator of certainty you're imagining it to be. This is called conjecture, and you can look it up in a dictionary too (hint#2: it's under 'C').
Hobbes' Choice wrote:One you have done that then you will have a right to talk about it.
Right to talk about it? Granted by who? You? :lol: How about you go pack sand. Comprende?

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by thedoc » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:16 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Germans are not Huns. Never were.
Well, they're not Honeys either.

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by prof » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:12 am

For relevant remarks on the topic of this thread see pages 36-41 of the essay A Unified Theory of Ethics. The chapter is entitled "Do the Ends justify the Means?" Here is a link to it: http://tinyurl.com/27pzhbf


For further details on this aspect of Applied Ethics, see pages 66-72 in ETHICS: A College Course. HERE:
http://tinyurl.com/24cs9y7

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Re: Is volunteering for the military potentially unethical?

Post by thedoc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:39 am

prof wrote: Do the Ends justify the Means?

Short answer, in these cases, probably not, but in the real world, the winners write the History and in so doing can justify the means.

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