Does our modern age lack human dignity?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:28 pm

Pluto wrote:
Kuznetzova wrote:I feel like a man who is charged with placing a note into a bottle, which will only be received by people centuries in the future.

On this note I would scribble:

We are an animal from Africa. All values are suspect or temporary fads.
We are targets of nuclear missiles. All parts of society are militarized.



How can we re-obtain human dignity in contemporary times?
What is the foundation of human dignity today?

To get back dignity we first see what took it away. How has it been eroded. Then either destroy it or turn your back on it. Modern life is consumer driven, people have been demoted from citizen to consumer. There is a dumbing down of communication between power structures and its populace. We first find the source of degradation and from there began to build anew.

Being targets of nuclear weapons is just one of the many dangers of being alive in the 21st, nothing much you can do about it, but protest it. I can be dignified while having a gun pointed at me.
All this implies that it was better sometime in the past...

When, exactly do you think that was?

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Pluto » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:50 am

I'm not thinking so far back just pre 80's. When the name change from citizen to consumer occurred. I see that after the second world war there was a push to educate and enlighten a brutalised populace. Now since the 60's the idea is to manipulate, confuse, rip-off, and dumb-down, large swathes of the populace. Society, the machine, creates the people it wants further down the line. The new person (digital online) will not know the meaning of the word 'dignity'. Like in the book 1984, it will have been erased or emptied out.

There should be a book about the history of the public. What it meant through history.

Religion has come apart, the moorings of the 19th and 20th have dissolved and we are abound where we know not. But this is a good thing and natural, we just have to figure out a new idea of a what a person is.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:24 pm

Pluto wrote:I'm not thinking so far back just pre 80's. When the name change from citizen to consumer occurred. I see that after the second world war there was a push to educate and enlighten a brutalised populace. Now since the 60's the idea is to manipulate, confuse, rip-off, and dumb-down, large swathes of the populace. Society, the machine, creates the people it wants further down the line. The new person (digital online) will not know the meaning of the word 'dignity'. Like in the book 1984, it will have been erased or emptied out.

There should be a book about the history of the public. What it meant through history.

Religion has come apart, the moorings of the 19th and 20th have dissolved and we are abound where we know not. But this is a good thing and natural, we just have to figure out a new idea of a what a person is.
I think you are dead wrong. You have confused appearance with reality.

How old are you?

WW2 was built on the ability to manipulate, confuse, rip-off, and oppress millions of people. How the hell do you think Hitler managed to turn millions of Germans into hatefilled morons, and how do you think the British managed to manipulate the populace to thwart him.
By MASSIVE contrast, Vietnam had to battle against an unprecedented anti-war movement.

And the fact that religion has "come apart" is exactly the sort of evidence that flies against your view. Think it over.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Pluto » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:35 pm

According to the Tiqqun collective, we have become the innocuous, pliable inhabitants of global urban societies. Even in the absence of any direct compulsion, we choose to do what we are told to do; we allow the management of our bodies, our ideas, our entertainment, and all our imaginary needs to be externally imposed. We buy products that have been recommended to us through the monitoring of our electronic lives, and then we voluntarily leave feedback for others about what we have purchased. We are the compliant subject who submits to all manner of biometric and surveillance intrusion, and who ingests toxic food and water and lives near nuclear reactors without complaint. The absolute abdication of responsibility for living is indicated by the titles of the many bestselling guides that tell us, with a grim fatality, the 1,000 movies to see before we die, the 100 tourist destinations to visit before we die, the 500 books to read before we die.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:33 pm

Pluto wrote:According to the Tiqqun collective, we have become the innocuous, pliable inhabitants of global urban societies. Even in the absence of any direct compulsion, we choose to do what we are told to do; we allow the management of our bodies, our ideas, our entertainment, and all our imaginary needs to be externally imposed. We buy products that have been recommended to us through the monitoring of our electronic lives, and then we voluntarily leave feedback for others about what we have purchased. We are the compliant subject who submits to all manner of biometric and surveillance intrusion, and who ingests toxic food and water and lives near nuclear reactors without complaint. The absolute abdication of responsibility for living is indicated by the titles of the many bestselling guides that tell us, with a grim fatality, the 1,000 movies to see before we die, the 100 tourist destinations to visit before we die, the 500 books to read before we die.
I don't know and don't really care who the Tiqqun collective is, but the thought is based on a fallacy that pretends that what they have identified is something new. What is "we have become", is in effect "what we have always been". This is a classic 'golden age' fallacy. In which the argument is based on a false idea that the past was better, and that the problem resides in the present.

The fact is that NOW we all have to ability to communicate with just about any other person on earth, at the touch of a button. That, for the first time in history has enabled us all to escape the structuring pressures of our own parochial society and to make choices never before possible since the dawn of time.
And they are wrong, we do complain, like no time in history. What we now lack is a unifying ideology. 150 years ago, the oppressed were able to change the world through a left-wing political ideology. ~But that was a doubled edged sword. Whilst it enabled the people to break the power of the aristocratic elite, it was much like a new religion, and bound its followers to a strict cause. And that cause was soon abused by the brokers of power who quickly returned to the old status quo, the new leaders simply replaced the old leaders and repeated the insult.

Now, if anything, the problem is too much choice. Not just in the consumption of white goods, and life-style choices, but in the choice of political rebellion. There is no single coherent, positive anti-establishment political voice. The voice is not manufactured, as Marx, and Lenin were able to rally the people to a belief system. Now the voice is the voice of billions. But the voice is negative. Whilst we know that the corporate hegemony has a strangle hold on us; and whilst we all know the banks are corrupt and making money not just in the booms, but through the mirage of austerity; and that the lowest of us is suffering the failings of the international banking conspiracy--- all the voices are negative, and leading to violence which is easy to put down.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Pluto » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:28 am

What is "we have become", is in effect "what we have always been"
We don't know that. A man was different in the 70s to a man now, the times have changed him, he has become another way. The text by Tiqqun addresses the title of this post, I thought it good to see first where or why the corrosion of dignity is taking place. It's the little things, the local supermarket has plastic bags for 10 cents which read in big letters ' I Love My Bag'. This is a piss-take, they're laughing at us, it shows contempt, and you can see it the media and the products they create for us. Today, just by voting for the current system, strips one of dignity. To not vote is dignified.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Pluto » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:49 am

I think you are dead wrong. You have confused appearance with reality.

How old are you?

WW2 was built on the ability to manipulate, confuse, rip-off, and oppress millions of people. How the hell do you think Hitler managed to turn millions of Germans into hatefilled morons, and how do you think the British managed to manipulate the populace to thwart him.
By MASSIVE contrast, Vietnam had to battle against an unprecedented anti-war movement.

And the fact that religion has "come apart" is exactly the sort of evidence that flies against your view. Think it over.
Of course manipulation existed before the wars I'm talking about after the destruction there was a rebuilding which bloomed into the 60s and as Jonathan Crary has wrote, a world revolution, unprecedented in scale, consisting in plural struggles in many sites. That, people revolution has been closed-down, destroyed, subsumed, and now a more controlling society is here and being built. So I'm talking about what happened mid 70s to the present. Mass culture is in the service of this transforming power. The crap we are watching is making us sick (and evil?).

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:17 am

Pluto wrote:
What is "we have become", is in effect "what we have always been"
We don't know that. A man was different in the 70s to a man now, the times have changed him, he has become another way. The text by Tiqqun addresses the title of this post, I thought it good to see first where or why the corrosion of dignity is taking place. It's the little things, the local supermarket has plastic bags for 10 cents which read in big letters ' I Love My Bag'. This is a piss-take, they're laughing at us, it shows contempt, and you can see it the media and the products they create for us. Today, just by voting for the current system, strips one of dignity. To not vote is dignified.
If 'we don't know that" then you have shot yourself in the foot and cannot say what we have lost.
Chew it over.
And then read the rest of my post.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:18 am

Pluto wrote:
I think you are dead wrong. You have confused appearance with reality.

How old are you?

WW2 was built on the ability to manipulate, confuse, rip-off, and oppress millions of people. How the hell do you think Hitler managed to turn millions of Germans into hatefilled morons, and how do you think the British managed to manipulate the populace to thwart him.
By MASSIVE contrast, Vietnam had to battle against an unprecedented anti-war movement.

And the fact that religion has "come apart" is exactly the sort of evidence that flies against your view. Think it over.
Of course manipulation existed before the wars I'm talking about after the destruction there was a rebuilding which bloomed into the 60s and as Jonathan Crary has wrote, a world revolution, unprecedented in scale, consisting in plural struggles in many sites. That, people revolution has been closed-down, destroyed, subsumed, and now a more controlling society is here and being built. So I'm talking about what happened mid 70s to the present. Mass culture is in the service of this transforming power. The crap we are watching is making us sick (and evil?).
I think you might do well to study some history.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Pluto » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:52 pm

History is written by those who are victorious that can never be an objective account. Better for me to deal with the way things are now.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Pluto » Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:59 pm

If 'we don't know that" then you have shot yourself in the foot and cannot say what we have lost.
We cannot say that man has always been the way he is. Man is a becoming, a forever changing, especially today with his technology. The machine has usurped man, a plane is safer when man takes a back seat to the machine, the computer. This is new.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:29 pm

Pluto wrote:History is written by those who are victorious that can never be an objective account. Better for me to deal with the way things are now.
The way things are now are written and presented by those in power. All reporting is selective. Hype, spin, and selection present to you a version of the world conceived in the mind of others.
Watch a day's news, first on Russia Today, then on the BBC, CNN, and Al Jazeera. It's like they are reporting on different days entirely - or where the stories are on the same topic, as if they are talking about different wars.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:34 pm

Pluto wrote:
If 'we don't know that" then you have shot yourself in the foot and cannot say what we have lost.
We cannot say that man has always been the way he is. Man is a becoming, a forever changing, especially today with his technology. .
No one is saying other than that. But if you deny that I cannot say what he was, then you cannot say how he has changed.
So the problem remains in your own goal.

THe machine has not usurped man. That's childish. Men are at the helm as always. The only difference now is that the power is more dispersed than at any time in the past.
1000 years ago, only a handful of people had the big picture; Kings and Priests. The rest were cogs with a limited view, illiterate and absent of basic knowledge of the world order. Their lives belonged to the Lord (in heaven, of the Manor no matter the difference).These people were born, lived and died in the same Parish.
Now we are literate. Ignorance is a choice.

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Pluto » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:00 pm

Watch a day's news, first on Russia Today, then on the BBC, CNN, and Al Jazeera. It's like they are reporting on different days entirely - or where the stories are on the same topic, as if they are talking about different wars.
Dood, what are you on about, the coverage is all the same!

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Re: Does our modern age lack human dignity?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:34 pm

Pluto wrote:
Watch a day's news, first on Russia Today, then on the BBC, CNN, and Al Jazeera. It's like they are reporting on different days entirely - or where the stories are on the same topic, as if they are talking about different wars.
Dood, what are you on about, the coverage is all the same!
You are insane.

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