the profit motive in medicine

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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by henry quirk »

commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:25 pm So, it seems that the profit motive is a major driver of healthcare such that those who provide healthcare services are happy to be paid either voluntarily or by force. Any agreement there?
I think insurers and hospital corps are quite happy to benefit from mandate.

Individual practitioners are mebbe not so in love with mandates.

Insurers and corps have a hand in legislation, so, of course, it benefits them to see you and me and him and her made to pay for stuff we individually may not want or need.

Individual practitioners are no different than you or me or him or her: they have no real say in how legislation is crafted, and they get stuck carryin' the burden of regulation that castrates their work.
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:51 pm I think insurers and hospital corps are quite happy to benefit from mandate.

Individual practitioners are mebbe not so in love with mandates.

Insurers and corps have a hand in legislation, so, of course, it benefits them to see you and me and him and her made to pay for stuff we individually may not want or need.

Individual practitioners are no different than you or me or him or her: they have no real say in how legislation is crafted, and they get stuck carryin' the burden of regulation that castrates their work.
So true. And pity the individual practitioners who are crimped by regulations and cannot have an easy time of it when earning their pay. I’ve personally heard doctors saying if you want to make easy money, stay out of medicine.

And I know too well the plight of the nurses. For if you have ever found that your shoes and socks are wet due to urine, feces, vomitus and snot, you are either a parent or a nurse.
simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:10 pm Just out of curiosity what public things are you dependent on and is there any chance you could go off-grid?
Money/finance, defense, health care, education, law, government [in general], communications...

As much as people as ourselves like to believe that we are independent, ones personal situation it intimately intertwined with the social whole.
simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:45 pm
henry quirk wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:51 pm I think insurers and hospital corps are quite happy to benefit from mandate.

Individual practitioners are mebbe not so in love with mandates.

Insurers and corps have a hand in legislation, so, of course, it benefits them to see you and me and him and her made to pay for stuff we individually may not want or need.

Individual practitioners are no different than you or me or him or her: they have no real say in how legislation is crafted, and they get stuck carryin' the burden of regulation that castrates their work.
So true. And pity the individual practitioners who are crimped by regulations and cannot have an easy time of it when earning their pay. I’ve personally heard doctors saying if you want to make easy money, stay out of medicine.

And I know too well the plight of the nurses. For if you have ever found that your shoes and socks are wet due to urine, feces, vomitus and snot, you are either a parent or a nurse.
I have been a practicing physician for over forty years now [albeit mostly retired] and I can tell you that there are extremely complex issues that have been not only put on the back burner, but taken off the stove altogether. When you have a corporate/government coalition running everything, the outcome should be fairly predictable.

I still believe that practicing medicine is the greatest calling one can have and serving people in this capacity have been incredibly rewarding, but you don't have to deal with the health care system for more than just a little while before you begin to understand that this is a system designed by corporations whose primary intention is to support their own interests.
commonsense
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by commonsense »

simplicity wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:02 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:10 pm Just out of curiosity what public things are you dependent on and is there any chance you could go off-grid?
Money/finance, defense, health care, education, law, government [in general], communications...

As much as people as ourselves like to believe that we are independent, ones personal situation it intimately intertwined with the social whole.
Truer words cannot be said.

If you are young enough to endure the rigors of a truly independent life, find a piece of land where you can hunt and fish for your food, make shoes and clothing out of animal skins and build a shelter by hand.

But I would sorely miss you on this forum.
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henry quirk
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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simplicity wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:02 pm
commonsense wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:10 pm Just out of curiosity what public things are you dependent on and is there any chance you could go off-grid?
*Money/finance, defense, health care, education, law, government [in general], communications...

As much as people as ourselves like to believe that we are independent, ones personal situation it intimately intertwined with the social whole.
*No doubt, to one degree or another, we're all dependent on these things.

Question is: are we dependent by necessity or by design?

Are these dependencies just the brute facts of life and we had best just get used it, or, are these dependencies foisted up on us, crafted specifically to bind us?
Advocate
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

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[quote="henry quirk" post_id=514517 time=1624112896 user_id=472]
[quote=simplicity post_id=514419 time=1624035764 user_id=21803]
[quote=commonsense post_id=514228 time=1623867052 user_id=14610]
Just out of curiosity what public things are you dependent on and is there any chance you could go off-grid?
[/quote]
[b]*Money/finance, defense, health care, education, law, government [in general], communications... [/b]

As much as people as ourselves like to believe that we are independent, ones personal situation it intimately intertwined with the social whole.
[/quote]

*No doubt, to one degree or another, we're all dependent on these things.

Question is: are we dependent by [i]necessity[/i] or by [i]design[/i]?

Are these dependencies just the brute facts of life and we had best just get used it, or, are these dependencies foisted up on us, crafted specifically to bind us?
[/quote]

The purpose of society, of which government is a formalized version, is specifically so we don't have to "just deal with it". If that's still a problem, the society is failing.
simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by simplicity »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:28 pm
*No doubt, to one degree or another, we're all dependent on these things.

Question is: are we dependent by necessity or by design?

Are these dependencies just the brute facts of life and we had best just get used it, or, are these dependencies foisted up on us, crafted specifically to bind us?
Great question! I've always kind of thought that groups operate with the highest degree of efficacy via exploiting individuals' natural tendencies [and particularly, weaknesses]. It's what Edward Bernays gifted to us, after all. One must believe that there is no area of corporate interest greater than getting into the sheeples' heads for this very reason.

I suppose we are not much different than any other species being herded to the slaughter.
Advocate
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Advocate »

[quote=simplicity post_id=514692 time=1624205273 user_id=21803]
I suppose we are not much different than any other species being herded to the slaughter.
[/quote]

There are cows who resist but have no power?
simplicity
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by simplicity »

Advocate wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:14 pmThe purpose of society, of which government is a formalized version, is specifically so we don't have to "just deal with it". If that's still a problem, the society is failing.
I am not sure I follow you here. Can you re-state?
Advocate
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Advocate »

[quote=simplicity post_id=514697 time=1624206875 user_id=21803]
[quote=Advocate post_id=514528 time=1624119284 user_id=15238]The purpose of society, of which government is a formalized version, is specifically so we don't have to "just deal with it". If that's still a problem, the society is failing.
[/quote]I am not sure I follow you here. Can you re-state?
[/quote]

The nominal, implicit purpose of society is for the good of all it's constituents. To the extent that's explicit and intentional, society is good.
jayjacobus
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by jayjacobus »

Advocate wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:07 am Making money off other people's misery is abhorrent. The only thing an ethical doctor can be doing is trying to lose their job by making themselves irrelevant. Focusing on either profit or status, esteem or credentials is a direct opportunity cost to your oath to save lives or whatever.

As a society we need to focus our energy almost exclusively on prevention and stop rewarding/perpetuating people who exhaustively create prettier and more expensive Band-Aids.
The cost of medicine is mainly in the control of corporate managers. They are seeking profits, not good patient care.

They hire technicians with 6 months study and a few months experience. The profit on technicians is tremendous while the profit on doctors and nuses is more modest. An independent doctor gets all the revenue and is a better value. But there are few independent doctors. Corportions make it difficult for independennt doctors to stay independent.

The solution is a community medical system managed by citizens. The government cedes management to corporations and the corporations rape insurance companies and medicare.

In the early 20th centuury, A man named Fitkin improved hospital management and became a leader in GOOD hospital management, His leadership is no longer followed.
Jori
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Re: the profit motive in medicine

Post by Jori »

I rhink this is due to the culture of materialism in the societal level and the morality of materialism at the individual level. Simply defined, materialsm is the love of wealth. More elaborately, I define materialsm as the exclusive or primary concern for the excessive or moderate accumulation or maintenance of money, possessions, or both. Materialism could be the cause of the 2008 financial crisis, and now the health care crisis.
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