The Limits of Morality

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-1-
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by -1- » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:11 am

Charm wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:45 am
The goal of philosophy is not to learn the form of philosophy as it is taught, but to learn what all forms have in common, and what each can teach us..
How do you envision what the form of philosophy is as it is taught? I daresay that's an unconventional way of looking at the subject matter.

Whatever it is, that form-thing, how can you learn what all forms have in common, when you abandon learning them? And if the point is not to learn what is taught, why teach philosophy in the first place?

Charm
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Charm » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:00 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 am
Dapplegrim wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:06 pm
Judaka wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:06 pm
If this wasn't a philosophy forum I would be sure I was getting trolled but I've met enough people here who have such insane ideas that I believe you actually think you're in the right here.

I've had enough.

Good day.
Yep, lots of trolls about and not enough goats!
I don't know if I necessarily agree with your statement entirely, judaka seems like a good sacrificial goat to me.
Who takes even a single step in the wrong direction? Everyone actually thinks they are in the right.. People tell their truth, that they are true, and will conceal inconsistencies.

Charm
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Charm » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:07 am

-1- wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:11 am
Charm wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:45 am
The goal of philosophy is not to learn the form of philosophy as it is taught, but to learn what all forms have in common, and what each can teach us..
How do you envision what the form of philosophy is as it is taught? I daresay that's an unconventional way of looking at the subject matter.

Whatever it is, that form-thing, how can you learn what all forms have in common, when you abandon learning them? And if the point is not to learn what is taught, why teach philosophy in the first place?
I don't know why philosophy is taught since when it is taught it is taught to those who already have some sub conscious understanding of it already.. Math, for example as pure abstract reasoning cannot be grasped without the understanding of Identity.. This is a common element of all knowledge.. I was at an advanced age before I made conscious this understanding of Identity/conservation simply by explaining it to myself.. In fact, there are many adults especially in politics who have no fixed meaning for the words they use, and no moral consideration beyond expedience.. My point is that Philosophy is wasted on the older student, that morality cannot be taught at all.. If it could make a difference it would not be taught at all.. Okay.. Say I am prejudiced because I have little formal education.. What every branch of knowledge teaches is the form, but those who teach have their own form of relationship, and to be an official philosopher one must know the form as it is taught, and teach the form as it is learned; and I would ask: What is the point.. Knowledge, concepts are conserved.. Conservatism is also a common human quality.. Can a revolutionary philosophy be taught when those who teach are conservative?? What do these add to our understanding, or to the prospect of our existence.. I came to philosophy through the back door with certain questions, some of which have been with me all of my life.. I learned far more than I set out to learn.. Because I have no formal education in philosophy I call myself what I am without benefit of an education.. I am a moralist..

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:50 am

Charm wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:00 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 am
Dapplegrim wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:06 pm


Yep, lots of trolls about and not enough goats!
I don't know if I necessarily agree with your statement entirely, judaka seems like a good sacrificial goat to me.
Who takes even a single step in the wrong direction? Everyone actually thinks they are in the right.. People tell their truth, that they are true, and will conceal inconsistencies.
All moral pathes have simulatenous good and bad elements. Bad, or evil, is strictly a deficiency in good; hence in certain respects all paths are good but the question is one of fullness.

Charm
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Charm » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:38 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:50 am
Charm wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:00 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:35 am


I don't know if I necessarily agree with your statement entirely, judaka seems like a good sacrificial goat to me.
Who takes even a single step in the wrong direction? Everyone actually thinks they are in the right.. People tell their truth, that they are true, and will conceal inconsistencies.
All moral pathes have simulatenous good and bad elements. Bad, or evil, is strictly a deficiency in good; hence in certain respects all paths are good but the question is one of fullness.
Correct.. Every choice is a moral choice, but I expect that for most of us, those choices have been made long before they are tested.. If your morals are tested every day, what does that say about your society ?.. I did something very moral once that nearly killed me.. There was no thought at that point besides my vacilation.. When I acted it was not because of what I thought, but because of who I am.. I am not the sort of man who watches people die without trying to help them.. I don't think a moral form can be defined with certainty, and yet obviously, morality is community.. You need to be moral to live in society as a full member.. It doesn't matter where anyone stands because if they do not accept the morality of society, they are already beyond the pale..

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm

Charm wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:38 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:50 am
Charm wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:00 pm


Who takes even a single step in the wrong direction? Everyone actually thinks they are in the right.. People tell their truth, that they are true, and will conceal inconsistencies.
All moral pathes have simulatenous good and bad elements. Bad, or evil, is strictly a deficiency in good; hence in certain respects all paths are good but the question is one of fullness.
Correct.. Every choice is a moral choice, but I expect that for most of us, those choices have been made long before they are tested.. If your morals are tested every day, what does that say about your society ?.. I did something very moral once that nearly killed me.. There was no thought at that point besides my vacilation.. When I acted it was not because of what I thought, but because of who I am.. I am not the sort of man who watches people die without trying to help them.. I don't think a moral form can be defined with certainty, and yet obviously, morality is community.. You need to be moral to live in society as a full member.. It doesn't matter where anyone stands because if they do not accept the morality of society, they are already beyond the pale..
You are right. The problem of acting virtuous, is that if it is recognized and honored that means there is a simultaneous evil element in society and that society is fundamentally split.

Ideally virtue should not have to be talked about, vice as well (obviously).

Charm
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Charm » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:19 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm
Charm wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:38 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:50 am


All moral pathes have simulatenous good and bad elements. Bad, or evil, is strictly a deficiency in good; hence in certain respects all paths are good but the question is one of fullness.
Correct.. Every choice is a moral choice, but I expect that for most of us, those choices have been made long before they are tested.. If your morals are tested every day, what does that say about your society ?.. I did something very moral once that nearly killed me.. There was no thought at that point besides my vacilation.. When I acted it was not because of what I thought, but because of who I am.. I am not the sort of man who watches people die without trying to help them.. I don't think a moral form can be defined with certainty, and yet obviously, morality is community.. You need to be moral to live in society as a full member.. It doesn't matter where anyone stands because if they do not accept the morality of society, they are already beyond the pale..
You are right. The problem of acting virtuous, is that if it is recognized and honored that means there is a simultaneous evil element in society and that society is fundamentally split.

Ideally virtue should not have to be talked about, vice as well (obviously).
I am not disagreeing with you.. What happens in nature, floods, hurricanes, calamity can hardly be classed as evil because it is mindless.. Rather, it is human activity, also often mindless enough that is classed as evil.. What Oedipus gave as his apology was: I did what I did not knowing what I did.. No philosopher should offer this excuse because as Socrates said: Knowledge is Virtue.. If this is true it is because we think first and do after with some certainty that what we are doing is right.. We have a society that values action over thought, and it is inevitable that many do evil having no conception of the consequences of their actions..

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:28 pm

Charm wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm
Charm wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:38 pm
Correct.. Every choice is a moral choice, but I expect that for most of us, those choices have been made long before they are tested.. If your morals are tested every day, what does that say about your society ?.. I did something very moral once that nearly killed me.. There was no thought at that point besides my vacilation.. When I acted it was not because of what I thought, but because of who I am.. I am not the sort of man who watches people die without trying to help them.. I don't think a moral form can be defined with certainty, and yet obviously, morality is community.. You need to be moral to live in society as a full member.. It doesn't matter where anyone stands because if they do not accept the morality of society, they are already beyond the pale..
You are right. The problem of acting virtuous, is that if it is recognized and honored that means there is a simultaneous evil element in society and that society is fundamentally split.

Ideally virtue should not have to be talked about, vice as well (obviously).
I am not disagreeing with you.. What happens in nature, floods, hurricanes, calamity can hardly be classed as evil because it is mindless.. Rather, it is human activity, also often mindless enough that is classed as evil.. What Oedipus gave as his apology was: I did what I did not knowing what I did.. No philosopher should offer this excuse because as Socrates said: Knowledge is Virtue.. If this is true it is because we think first and do after with some certainty that what we are doing is right.. We have a society that values action over thought, and it is inevitable that many do evil having no conception of the consequences of their actions..
Thought is pure action, we live in a society of little action equivocally similar to a form of "stagnation" or "desolation" as a moral code where we are not permitted, without severe punishment, to act freely.

Charm
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:13 am

Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Charm » Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:49 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:28 pm
Charm wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:19 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:37 pm

You are right. The problem of acting virtuous, is that if it is recognized and honored that means there is a simultaneous evil element in society and that society is fundamentally split.

Ideally virtue should not have to be talked about, vice as well (obviously).
I am not disagreeing with you.. What happens in nature, floods, hurricanes, calamity can hardly be classed as evil because it is mindless.. Rather, it is human activity, also often mindless enough that is classed as evil.. What Oedipus gave as his apology was: I did what I did not knowing what I did.. No philosopher should offer this excuse because as Socrates said: Knowledge is Virtue.. If this is true it is because we think first and do after with some certainty that what we are doing is right.. We have a society that values action over thought, and it is inevitable that many do evil having no conception of the consequences of their actions..
Thought is pure action, we live in a society of little action equivocally similar to a form of "stagnation" or "desolation" as a moral code where we are not permitted, without severe punishment, to act freely.
Thought is potential.. It is not action.. It takes energy, but it save energy..

Logik
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:27 pm

Charm wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:49 pm
Thought is potential.. It is not action.. It takes energy, but it save energy..
Any saving is a return on investment.

You get out what you put in...

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:21 am

Charm wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:49 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:28 pm
Charm wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:19 pm


I am not disagreeing with you.. What happens in nature, floods, hurricanes, calamity can hardly be classed as evil because it is mindless.. Rather, it is human activity, also often mindless enough that is classed as evil.. What Oedipus gave as his apology was: I did what I did not knowing what I did.. No philosopher should offer this excuse because as Socrates said: Knowledge is Virtue.. If this is true it is because we think first and do after with some certainty that what we are doing is right.. We have a society that values action over thought, and it is inevitable that many do evil having no conception of the consequences of their actions..
Thought is pure action, we live in a society of little action equivocally similar to a form of "stagnation" or "desolation" as a moral code where we are not permitted, without severe punishment, to act freely.
Thought is potential.. It is not action.. It takes energy, but it save energy..
Action is potential thought as well. Hence you are left with a problem of beginning point in measurement if you wish to justify your stance. Thought as both actual and potential energy, is still thought as actual energy.

Charm
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:13 am

Re: The Limits of Morality

Post by Charm » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:12 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:21 am
Charm wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:49 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:28 pm


Thought is pure action, we live in a society of little action equivocally similar to a form of "stagnation" or "desolation" as a moral code where we are not permitted, without severe punishment, to act freely.
Thought is potential.. It is not action.. It takes energy, but it save energy..
Action is potential thought as well. Hence you are left with a problem of beginning point in measurement if you wish to justify your stance. Thought as both actual and potential energy, is still thought as actual energy.
Thought does take energy and so it is hard to say it isn't action.. Same with feelings, the emotions that drive us, or perhaps- motivate us, because the anticipation of a certain emotional state gives us pleasure or happiness to contemplate..

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