Vengeance and Revenge

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
Walker
Posts: 5234
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Vengeance and Revenge

Post by Walker » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm

The mulling of this began in a dead thread.

Both are facts of life.

Any insights to correct or refine this particular ordering?
I’ll shut up, so fearlessly say anything you like.

Vengeance is necessary for a society.
- Vengeance comes from rule of law.
- Vengeance is punishment, not rehab.
- Vengeance is impersonal.
- Vengeance is proportional.
- Vengeance is predictable.
- Vengeance is to maintain order in society.
- Capital punishment.

Revenge is harmful for a society.
- Revenge comes from rule of man.
- Revenge is punishment, not rehab.
- Revenge is personal.
- Revenge can be disproportionate.
- Revenge is unpredictable.
- Revenge is to maintain the order of a personal view.
- Murder.

Walker
Posts: 5234
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by Walker » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:56 pm

One more thing, since you’re going to hear the word a lot.

How would abortion fit into this ordering of the universe?

Impenitent
Posts: 1952
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by Impenitent » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:19 am

until the fetus has the right to life, it is impersonal

-Imp

mickthinks
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:10 am
Location: Augsburg

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by mickthinks » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:55 am

There is a distinction in meaning between vengeance and revenge, but it isn't the one you have drawn there. (I suggest it is that "vengeance" is the abstract noun used for the class of responses and outcomes, and "revenge" is a (slightly more concrete?) noun (and sometimes verb) used to indicate particular instances of returning harm for harm—happy to discuss).

So whatever point you wanted to make about the difference between society's needs and operation and individual motives and desires has been lost, I think.

User avatar
QuantumT
Posts: 592
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by QuantumT » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:27 pm

Retribution, revenge, vengeance, it's so primitive.

What you want to do is stop a person from inflicting harm.

If it's a rapist: Cut the balls. He will never again have the urge.
Same goes for violent crimes. The balls also runs agression.

Theft. It's not such a serious crime. Brand them. Exclude them.

gaffo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by gaffo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:27 am

Walker wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm
The mulling of this began in a dead thread.

Both are facts of life.

Any insights to correct or refine this particular ordering?
I’ll shut up, so fearlessly say anything you like.

Vengeance is necessary for a society.
- Vengeance comes from rule of law.
- Vengeance is punishment, not rehab.
- Vengeance is impersonal.
- Vengeance is proportional.
- Vengeance is predictable.
- Vengeance is to maintain order in society.
- Capital punishment.

Revenge is harmful for a society.
- Revenge comes from rule of man.
- Revenge is punishment, not rehab.
- Revenge is personal.
- Revenge can be disproportionate.
- Revenge is unpredictable.
- Revenge is to maintain the order of a personal view.
- Murder.
I do not view the above as different myself.
i equat vengence with revenge.

i affirm both personally.

but as a Libertarian oppose Capital Punishment (do not affirm the State having the Power of God - to remove life).

i am not opposed to have that same power (and knowing it is illegal) in extreme circumstances BTW.

gaffo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by gaffo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:30 am

Walker wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:56 pm
One more thing, since you’re going to hear the word a lot.

How would abortion fit into this ordering of the universe?
as long as the abortion is done prior to viability outside the womb (23 weeks and earlier? to date) its not murder.

of course the earlier the better and more akin to killing a clump cells than a human being.

gaffo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by gaffo » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:31 am

Impenitent wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:19 am
until the fetus has the right to life, it is impersonal

-Imp
it has the right to life if viable outside the womb.

not otherise.

dorothea
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by dorothea » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:53 am

Its not a matter of right only is it? What about the aborter's intentions? Any abortion at any time by Mengele would be wrong, no? A late abortion by a demented teen who had been brutalised by cousins, as happens, would not be wrong surely? An early abortion by a self-infatuated porn star who was pregnant through her own carelessness and didn't want to have a break in her reprehensible career would be wrong, yes?

Walker
Posts: 5234
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by Walker » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:42 am

gaffo wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:27 am

I do not view the above as different myself.
i equat vengence with revenge.

i affirm both personally.

but as a Libertarian oppose Capital Punishment (do not affirm the State having the Power of God - to remove life).

i am not opposed to have that same power (and knowing it is illegal) in extreme circumstances BTW.
I think that vengeance is about seeking justice for another, or others.
Revenge is about seeking justice for oneself.
Viva la difference.

Whether or not the justice is warranted is a separate issue.

The principle of viability outside the womb also applies to human viability outside the womb of society, or outside the womb of the welfare system. Viability is attributed to either survival of the fittest, or to the human decency that helps a living, helpless thing to survive.

Walker
Posts: 5234
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by Walker » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:42 am

dorothea wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:53 am
Its not a matter of right only is it? What about the aborter's intentions? Any abortion at any time by Mengele would be wrong, no? A late abortion by a demented teen who had been brutalised by cousins, as happens, would not be wrong surely? An early abortion by a self-infatuated porn star who was pregnant through her own carelessness and didn't want to have a break in her reprehensible career would be wrong, yes?
What is the purpose of abortion, and how else does that purpose manifest in relationship?

User avatar
RCSaunders
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:21 pm

Walker wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Vengeance is necessary for a society.

Revenge is harmful for a society.
Whether vengeance or revenge are good or bad for a society is irrelevant. For individuals, either view is disastrous. Both are based on the immoral principle that two wrongs make a right.

Randy

Walker
Posts: 5234
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by Walker » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:51 pm

You can't just pretend they don't exist.

gaffo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by gaffo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:46 am

Walker wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:42 am
gaffo wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:27 am

I do not view the above as different myself.
i equat vengence with revenge.

i affirm both personally.

but as a Libertarian oppose Capital Punishment (do not affirm the State having the Power of God - to remove life).

i am not opposed to have that same power (and knowing it is illegal) in extreme circumstances BTW.
I think that vengeance is about seeking justice for another, or others.
Revenge is about seeking justice for oneself.
Viva la difference.

I see.

then for me i affirm the latter and not the former.

neither is legal IMO.

gaffo
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Vengeance and Revenge

Post by gaffo » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:49 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:21 pm
Walker wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Vengeance is necessary for a society.

Revenge is harmful for a society.
Whether vengeance or revenge are good or bad for a society is irrelevant. For individuals, either view is disastrous. Both are based on the immoral principle that two wrongs make a right.

Randy
I disagree.
i view (proportioanal) revenge as just and moral.

and also should be fully illegal(talking about the Rule of Law).

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests