How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

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dattaswami
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How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by dattaswami »

Convincing the Adamant Atheist

Shri Phani asked: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Swami replied: O Learned and Devoted Servants of God! Such adamant behaviour of atheists is the result of the aversion that they have held in their mind towards spirituality and spiritual people for a long time. The reason for their aversion is the hypocrisy of theists who have been secretly doing sins while pretending to be righteous externally. These atheists are able to identify such hypocrisy and they react emotionally. Unfortunately, their emotion is misguided since they blame God, holding Him responsible for the hypocrisy of the theists. They should blame the sinful theists and not God. The atheists think that if the concept of God itself is removed, the hypocrisy based on God will be eliminated from its root. This conclusion of the atheists is quite foolish. Firstly, by removing the concept of God, the quality of hypocrisy is not removed. Secondly, the problem of sin increases even more since the public loses all fear and starts committing all types of sin fearlessly.

I agree that theists are committing sins in the name of God. If the concept of God is eradicated, let us say that the sins done in the name of God might stop. But, apart from the sins committed in the name of God, what about all the other types of sins committed by people in the world? Will they stop too? Not at all! In fact, the theists of today, upon giving up their faith in God, will commit a hundred times more sins in the world. They will not even fear the various controlling agencies like the police and courts since they would have already tilted them in their own favor through corruption and influence. They would have lost all fear of punishment. Luckily, the theists of today, are greatly controlled by the concept of existence of God. Even though they commit some sins, they are afraid of committing more sins because they believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent. They know that He can punish sinners, even if they manage to escape the law of the land through crooked ways. The omniscient and omnipotent God shows us the evidence of His punishment of sinners in this world itself. Souls are punished for the intense sins committed by them, even while they are alive. Similarly, intensely good actions also yield rewards in this world, while the person is alive.

Does Worship Cancel Sin?

There is one concept propagated by priests, which is certainly wrong. Priests claim that sin can be cancelled by worshiping God. This is not true. The reason why the priest promotes this false concept, is to make money. The theistic sinner, who is afraid of divine punishment and is eager to find a way to escape from it, gets carried away by this concept. The priest demands money from the theistic sinner in order to perform some ritual-worship. It is basically a form of fraud. We must indeed criticize such priests and eliminate such wrong concepts from society through the propagation of true spiritual knowledge. But the atheist’s insistence on demolishing the very concept of God, in order to solve the problem, is very foolish. If your house is infested with rats, do you find a way to drive away the rats or do you burn down your entire house? In the present context, atheists want you to burn down your entire house in order to permanently eliminate the problem. Let us say, you have a toothache. A dentist says that he can free you of the toothache, once and for all, by removing all your teeth! Would you go to such a dentist? Emotion always kills a person’s intelligence and this is the case of the atheist. Eliminating all the sins committed in the name of God by rejecting the very concept of God is indeed burning down your house to get rid of rats!

The Hypocricy of Atheistic Morality

The atheist says that sin can be controlled even without the concept of God through moral education or ethics education. But tell Me, will anybody listen to you if you simply instruct people to not commit sin because sin is bad and not committing sin is good? It will simply not work! That is why moral science classes are removed from education. They are simply a waste of time! Moral education must be combined with the spiritual knowledge of God. Then alone can the desired goal be achieved. Atheistic moral education is bound to fail. The people to whom you are preaching your atheistic morality will immediately point out to you that following morality will result in some materialistic loss to them. They will ask you if there is any harm in committing sin if it gives some material benefits. You will say that they must fear the punishment given by the police and the law. But, they will tell you that they already have found crooked ways involving bribery, influence and force to escape the punishment. You will say that those techniques are not good and ethical. But they will not care at all for your ethics. They will say, “How does it matter if the techniques are good or bad? If they help me in getting materialistic benefits and enjoyment in this world, without facing any punishment from the law, they are good for me!” What can you say to them?

Becoming an atheist is nothing but getting a free licence to commit any sin, whenever one gets the chance and whenever one can escape from the law. If you say that you will remain ethical and not commit any sin, even without accepting the existence of God, it is the biggest hypocrisy! If there is indeed such an atheist, God will congratulate him and declare him to be a far far better soul than the sinful theist. God’s maximum expectation from any soul in this world is for the soul to avoid sin. He never promotes devotion, asking souls to worship Him, since the path of devotion was discovered by devotees.

God Exists

Atheists need not pretend to be broadminded in allowing the concept of God just for its practical value in controlling sin, even though they do not believe it to be true. The concept of the existence of God is absolutely true. Hence, there is no need to create any concept merely for its practical utility in solving the problem of sin in the world. The concept of the existence of God is a million percent true! The atheist has to defend his position against miracles, which are practically experienced. God-in-human-form performs unimaginable events in the world, called miracles. They provide direct evidence of the existence of the unimaginable domain, which itself is God. But the atheist blindly dismisses even genuine miracles as magic tricks. Certainly, there are clever people who use magic tricks to cheat the innocent public into thinking that they are performing miracles. But the problem is that atheists consider all miracles as magic tricks. Shri Satya Sai Baba, the recent Human Incarnation, invited atheists and scientists to observe and disprove His miracles, showing them to be magic tricks, if they could. Several atheistic scientists became His disciples, after observing His miracles for a long time. If the atheist is a true scientist, he or she will have an open mind to study and accept the truth. Atheists without a scientific attitude are incapable of such a transformation. They will always remain adamant, adamant and adamant! Science studies any phenomenon without any prejudice and, at the end of the study, it accepts whatever conclusion follows. Atheism starts with a pre-determined adamant conclusion and using twisted logic, arrives at the same conclusion, at the end of the study! There is nothing you can do with such adamant atheists except saluting to them, falling at their lotus feet! God allows them to exist in this world since they are useful as examiners for testing the strength of devotees’ faith and devotion.
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Harbal »

dattaswami wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:14 am Convincing the Adamant Atheist

Shri Phani asked: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?
Swami replied: We should start by ceasing to bombard them with mystic mumbo jumbo.
popeye1945
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by popeye1945 »

Provide evidence, for any/all the gods.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

This is all very silly.
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Sculptor »

dattaswami wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 3:14 am Convincing the Adamant Atheist

Shri Phani asked: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Swami replied: O Learned and Devoted Servants of God! Such adamant behaviour of atheists is the result of the aversion that they have held in their mind towards spirituality and spiritual people for a long time. The reason for their aversion is the hypocrisy of theists who have been secretly doing sins while pretending to be righteous externally. These atheists are able to identify such hypocrisy and they react emotionally. Unfortunately, their emotion is misguided since they blame God, holding Him responsible for the hypocrisy of the theists. They should blame the sinful theists and not God. The atheists think that if the concept of God itself is removed, the hypocrisy based on God will be eliminated from its root. This conclusion of the atheists is quite foolish. Firstly, by removing the concept of God, the quality of hypocrisy is not removed. Secondly, the problem of sin increases even more since the public loses all fear and starts committing all types of sin fearlessly.

I agree that theists are committing sins in the name of God. If the concept of God is eradicated, let us say that the sins done in the name of God might stop. But, apart from the sins committed in the name of God, what about all the other types of sins committed by people in the world? Will they stop too? Not at all! In fact, the theists of today, upon giving up their faith in God, will commit a hundred times more sins in the world. They will not even fear the various controlling agencies like the police and courts since they would have already tilted them in their own favor through corruption and influence. They would have lost all fear of punishment. Luckily, the theists of today, are greatly controlled by the concept of existence of God. Even though they commit some sins, they are afraid of committing more sins because they believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent. They know that He can punish sinners, even if they manage to escape the law of the land through crooked ways. The omniscient and omnipotent God shows us the evidence of His punishment of sinners in this world itself. Souls are punished for the intense sins committed by them, even while they are alive. Similarly, intensely good actions also yield rewards in this world, while the person is alive.

Does Worship Cancel Sin?

There is one concept propagated by priests, which is certainly wrong. Priests claim that sin can be cancelled by worshiping God. This is not true. The reason why the priest promotes this false concept, is to make money. The theistic sinner, who is afraid of divine punishment and is eager to find a way to escape from it, gets carried away by this concept. The priest demands money from the theistic sinner in order to perform some ritual-worship. It is basically a form of fraud. We must indeed criticize such priests and eliminate such wrong concepts from society through the propagation of true spiritual knowledge. But the atheist’s insistence on demolishing the very concept of God, in order to solve the problem, is very foolish. If your house is infested with rats, do you find a way to drive away the rats or do you burn down your entire house? In the present context, atheists want you to burn down your entire house in order to permanently eliminate the problem. Let us say, you have a toothache. A dentist says that he can free you of the toothache, once and for all, by removing all your teeth! Would you go to such a dentist? Emotion always kills a person’s intelligence and this is the case of the atheist. Eliminating all the sins committed in the name of God by rejecting the very concept of God is indeed burning down your house to get rid of rats!

The Hypocricy of Atheistic Morality

The atheist says that sin can be controlled even without the concept of God through moral education or ethics education. But tell Me, will anybody listen to you if you simply instruct people to not commit sin because sin is bad and not committing sin is good? It will simply not work! That is why moral science classes are removed from education. They are simply a waste of time! Moral education must be combined with the spiritual knowledge of God. Then alone can the desired goal be achieved. Atheistic moral education is bound to fail. The people to whom you are preaching your atheistic morality will immediately point out to you that following morality will result in some materialistic loss to them. They will ask you if there is any harm in committing sin if it gives some material benefits. You will say that they must fear the punishment given by the police and the law. But, they will tell you that they already have found crooked ways involving bribery, influence and force to escape the punishment. You will say that those techniques are not good and ethical. But they will not care at all for your ethics. They will say, “How does it matter if the techniques are good or bad? If they help me in getting materialistic benefits and enjoyment in this world, without facing any punishment from the law, they are good for me!” What can you say to them?

Becoming an atheist is nothing but getting a free licence to commit any sin, whenever one gets the chance and whenever one can escape from the law. If you say that you will remain ethical and not commit any sin, even without accepting the existence of God, it is the biggest hypocrisy! If there is indeed such an atheist, God will congratulate him and declare him to be a far far better soul than the sinful theist. God’s maximum expectation from any soul in this world is for the soul to avoid sin. He never promotes devotion, asking souls to worship Him, since the path of devotion was discovered by devotees.

God Exists

Atheists need not pretend to be broadminded in allowing the concept of God just for its practical value in controlling sin, even though they do not believe it to be true. The concept of the existence of God is absolutely true. Hence, there is no need to create any concept merely for its practical utility in solving the problem of sin in the world. The concept of the existence of God is a million percent true! The atheist has to defend his position against miracles, which are practically experienced. God-in-human-form performs unimaginable events in the world, called miracles. They provide direct evidence of the existence of the unimaginable domain, which itself is God. But the atheist blindly dismisses even genuine miracles as magic tricks. Certainly, there are clever people who use magic tricks to cheat the innocent public into thinking that they are performing miracles. But the problem is that atheists consider all miracles as magic tricks. Shri Satya Sai Baba, the recent Human Incarnation, invited atheists and scientists to observe and disprove His miracles, showing them to be magic tricks, if they could. Several atheistic scientists became His disciples, after observing His miracles for a long time. If the atheist is a true scientist, he or she will have an open mind to study and accept the truth. Atheists without a scientific attitude are incapable of such a transformation. They will always remain adamant, adamant and adamant! Science studies any phenomenon without any prejudice and, at the end of the study, it accepts whatever conclusion follows. Atheism starts with a pre-determined adamant conclusion and using twisted logic, arrives at the same conclusion, at the end of the study! There is nothing you can do with such adamant atheists except saluting to them, falling at their lotus feet! God allows them to exist in this world since they are useful as examiners for testing the strength of devotees’ faith and devotion.
You'll have to convince yourself first.
It's obvious you are clueless about the simple facts of existence.
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Iwannaplato »

How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?
I am focusing on the discuss part. How can a theist improve their ability to speak to an atheist.
Live well and interact well with people in general, not just them.
Understand what the atheist has not experienced and often not grown up in. Really understand that.
Don't pretend that theism and atheism are just based on arguments and ideas, have a lot to do with experience and happenstance.
If they are curious about anything related to your theism, stay with that.
If they aren't, leave them alone.
If they have no interest, they have no interest. They know where the theists are. They can ask questions if they want to.
Keep in mind the things that have been done in God's name and continue to be.
Understand the specific context of the person's atheism, which means their life.
If they grew up in the Bible Best in the US or are a woman who managed to get out of Iran or Saudi Arabia, they will have specific reasons for having distaste for religion.
If you have sexism, racism, homophobia, hatred of other religions, smugness and a cruel deity who would torture someone for all time...remove the beam from your own eye before pointing out the mote in theirs.
Try to see what cultural biases went into the rules and customs of your religion. Could be things like sexism. Could also be class based biases. it could have to do with religions often siding with those in power, like tyrants. Render unto Caesar type attitudes have turned many toward communism and atheism.
Notice snobbery when dealing with indigenous religions or polytheisms or religions you think yours is better than.
If you are in a guru type role - and any religion can have guru roles - notice the narcissism invovled. This can be proxy narcissism where other people with power in your organizations treat the guru as king, while the guru keeps pretending to be humble yet never challenges the organizational narcissism.
There could be a whole series of books written about the subtle and gross (pun intended) these patterns in religions fall out.
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

One thing that always seemed strange to me is the idea that God cares that you're correct about this one particular thing.

There's no other facts in the world where, if you're wrong about it, you're at risk of eternal torment. Say you accept or reject a particular model of physics, and it turns out that your choice was factually incorrect - so what? Right? Like you might annoy a couple people about it over the course of your life, who feel frustrated that they couldn't convince you of the truth, but it doesn't go beyond that. There's no god of physics who is going to punish you for not believing the right physics. Even the people you annoyed wouldn't generally wish eternal torment on you for being incorrect about a simple matter of fact

No other fact in the planet holds the status that "belief in God" and "belief in my specific vision of God" have, and I think that's notable.

I also think it's notable that most human beings, when pressed, would admit that it's incredibly cruel to eternally torment someone for not believing in you, when you put them in a world where belief was only going to be based on faith instead of overwhelming evidence. "Incredibly cruel" is an understatement - it's literally the most evil thing imaginable. There isn't a human that ever existed that committed evils comparable to that.

Of course not all religious people believe in that kind of hell, which is great. You shouldn't. It's a terribly irrationally evil thing to believe.
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Lacewing »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:59 pm No other fact in the planet holds the status that "belief in God" and "belief in my specific vision of God" have, and I think that's notable.

I also think it's notable that most human beings, when pressed, would admit that it's incredibly cruel to eternally torment someone for not believing in you, when you put them in a world where belief was only going to be based on faith instead of overwhelming evidence. "Incredibly cruel" is an understatement - it's literally the most evil thing imaginable. There isn't a human that ever existed that committed evils comparable to that.
Good points.

Even most humans have kind hearts, want to do the right/best things, have compassion and care about others, and wouldn't wish torment on anyone unless maybe they hate the person. Any respectable god would surely not be ruled by such vengeful emotions and would understand how incredibly difficult and ridiculous this world is for human beings to endure and navigate. Would any of us condemn a child for not believing us?

I think the reason that human beings crafted human-like gods is because they could not conceive of much beyond themselves (nor beyond their experiences at the time) and the purpose was to validate and serve themselves. That's why the traditional presentations handed-down don't make sense to an evolving world. It's strange to see some human beings (even now) serving themselves with extreme forms of the nonsense... and perpetrating those evils onto others in a weird kind of self-fulfilling prophecy that they blame on the others.
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:59 pm One thing that always seemed strange to me is the idea that God cares that you're correct about this one particular thing.
Well, even the volatile versions of the Christian deity care about a bunch of stuff - I mean, you could spend a lot of time and energy trying to do it all, and add in Jesus' requirements that you not even have the feelings associated with the 10 commandments (lusting in your heart over your neighbor's wife and all that) it's a bunch.

But, yeah, I you'd think God would be at least as loving as the better among us and reserve eternal torment only for those who continually desire.
There's no other facts in the world where, if you're wrong about it, you're at risk of eternal torment.

Though this isn't a necessary part of theism and many theists don't believe you're out if you miss this one.
Say you accept or reject a particular model of physics, and it turns out that your choice was factually incorrect - so what? Right? Like you might annoy a couple people about it over the course of your life, who feel frustrated that they couldn't convince you of the truth, but it doesn't go beyond that. There's no god of physics who is going to punish you for not believing the right physics. Even the people you annoyed wouldn't generally wish eternal torment on you for being incorrect about a simple matter of fact
Though in the secular world, this is often the way things are now. Go wrong on the trans issue and man, you are out. In fact, seem to go wrong on it and you are out. And that's both sides, wrong being different for each. I'd be very afraid if these people had a button that could send me to hell. When I was younger, I would been worried about a smaller percentage of the population. Still, significant, but smaller. Now, it's one strike, one area of disagreement and you are out. It's quite amazing. You can suddenly get hundreds if not thousands of messages (if you are well known) including significant numbers of threats of rape and murder.

For some just being white or black is enough to put you out. And there's nothing you can do to be in. That's condemned for being something, not for doing something.
Of course not all religious people believe in that kind of hell, which is great. You shouldn't. It's a terribly irrationally evil thing to believe.
I don't think it's a coincidence that of the religions in the world the dominant ones have this aspect.
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:59 pm One thing that always seemed strange to me is the idea that God cares that you're correct about this one particular thing.

There's no other facts in the world where, if you're wrong about it, you're at risk of eternal torment. Say you accept or reject a particular model of physics, and it turns out that your choice was factually incorrect - so what? Right? Like you might annoy a couple people about it over the course of your life, who feel frustrated that they couldn't convince you of the truth, but it doesn't go beyond that. There's no god of physics who is going to punish you for not believing the right physics. Even the people you annoyed wouldn't generally wish eternal torment on you for being incorrect about a simple matter of fact

No other fact in the planet holds the status that "belief in God" and "belief in my specific vision of God" have, and I think that's notable.

I also think it's notable that most human beings, when pressed, would admit that it's incredibly cruel to eternally torment someone for not believing in you, when you put them in a world where belief was only going to be based on faith instead of overwhelming evidence. "Incredibly cruel" is an understatement - it's literally the most evil thing imaginable. There isn't a human that ever existed that committed evils comparable to that.

Of course not all religious people believe in that kind of hell, which is great. You shouldn't. It's a terribly irrationally evil thing to believe.
Where in the bible does it state that you will burn in hell (or be tormented) forever simply for not believing in the existence of God?
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by popeye1945 »

Would you like to swing on star, and carry moonbeams home in a jar, or would you rather be an atheist!
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by attofishpi »

popeye1945 wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:37 am Would you like to swing on star, and carry moonbeams home in a jar, or would you rather be an atheist!
The only way I could be an atheist is to convince myself that "God" is an artificial intelligence and that we truly are in some sort of simulation. :wink:
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:33 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:59 pm One thing that always seemed strange to me is the idea that God cares that you're correct about this one particular thing.

There's no other facts in the world where, if you're wrong about it, you're at risk of eternal torment. Say you accept or reject a particular model of physics, and it turns out that your choice was factually incorrect - so what? Right? Like you might annoy a couple people about it over the course of your life, who feel frustrated that they couldn't convince you of the truth, but it doesn't go beyond that. There's no god of physics who is going to punish you for not believing the right physics. Even the people you annoyed wouldn't generally wish eternal torment on you for being incorrect about a simple matter of fact

No other fact in the planet holds the status that "belief in God" and "belief in my specific vision of God" have, and I think that's notable.

I also think it's notable that most human beings, when pressed, would admit that it's incredibly cruel to eternally torment someone for not believing in you, when you put them in a world where belief was only going to be based on faith instead of overwhelming evidence. "Incredibly cruel" is an understatement - it's literally the most evil thing imaginable. There isn't a human that ever existed that committed evils comparable to that.

Of course not all religious people believe in that kind of hell, which is great. You shouldn't. It's a terribly irrationally evil thing to believe.
Where in the bible does it state that you will burn in hell (or be tormented) forever simply for not believing in the existence of God?
I didn't mention the Bible
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Re: How can we discuss and convince atheists, who are very adamant in their views?

Post by attofishpi »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:57 am
attofishpi wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:33 am
Flannel Jesus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:59 pm One thing that always seemed strange to me is the idea that God cares that you're correct about this one particular thing.

There's no other facts in the world where, if you're wrong about it, you're at risk of eternal torment. Say you accept or reject a particular model of physics, and it turns out that your choice was factually incorrect - so what? Right? Like you might annoy a couple people about it over the course of your life, who feel frustrated that they couldn't convince you of the truth, but it doesn't go beyond that. There's no god of physics who is going to punish you for not believing the right physics. Even the people you annoyed wouldn't generally wish eternal torment on you for being incorrect about a simple matter of fact

No other fact in the planet holds the status that "belief in God" and "belief in my specific vision of God" have, and I think that's notable.

I also think it's notable that most human beings, when pressed, would admit that it's incredibly cruel to eternally torment someone for not believing in you, when you put them in a world where belief was only going to be based on faith instead of overwhelming evidence. "Incredibly cruel" is an understatement - it's literally the most evil thing imaginable. There isn't a human that ever existed that committed evils comparable to that.

Of course not all religious people believe in that kind of hell, which is great. You shouldn't. It's a terribly irrationally evil thing to believe.
Where in the bible does it state that you will burn in hell (or be tormented) forever simply for not believing in the existence of God?
I didn't mention the Bible
Wow. So where are you getting concepts of 'God', 'eternal torment' and 'hell' from?
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