Convincing the atheists...

[dattaswami]

When you approach an atheist and try to change the person through logic, leave the atheist to God, after presenting the final logic, which is that there is a 50-50 probability of the existence or non-existence of God. You should say the following to the atheist:

“This space is infinite and neither you nor I can find its boundary. I cannot show you the existence of hell, heaven or God in this infinite space. But you too cannot show me their absence in this infinite space by taking me up to the boundary of space. Hence, hell may exist or it may not exist.
Here is where a 50-50 probability has to be accepted. Suppose, I believe in the existence of hell and hence, I do not commit sins. Even if, after my death, I find out that there is no hell, there is no loss for me. While I am still alive, I have already enjoyed the benefit of living a tension-free life and not having to bother about the police and courts, since I have not committed any sins. On the other hand, if you commit sins believing that hell does not exist and after your death, if you find out that unfortunately, hell does exist, you are totally lost!

So, whenever there is a 50-50 probability, a wise man always errs on the safe side. One must always choose the side with a lower risk. Let us say there is a blind person walking on the road. One person tells him that there is a fire ahead in his path and another person tells him that there is no fire ahead. Whom should the blind man choose to follow?

Certainly, if he is a wise blind man, he will turn back because even if the fire is absent, there would be no loss to him. But if the blind man is foolish, he will choose to disregard the warning and take the risk of going forward. If unfortunately, there is actually a fire ahead, he will get burnt!
Therefore, choose the side of lower risk given the 50-50 probability and believe in the existence of the unimaginable God, heaven and hell. Worship God with devotion and do meritorious deeds without committing any sins. Even if God, heaven and hell are absent, you will get enough benefit of believing in God, heaven and hell, which is a life of happiness, peace and freedom from even a trace of tension of the police and the courts.
After all, whether a person is a theist or an atheist, all the efforts the person makes in life is only to get this benefit of a peaceful and happy life. Apart from this benefit in this world, there is also the possibility of you getting a huge benefit in the upper worlds after your death, which is very clearly stated by several Godmen and divine scriptures.”

If the atheist leads a worldly life following justice and avoids sins (pravṛtti), it is more than sufficient. Devotional life (nivṛtti) is not mandatory for him. But accepting at least the existence of the unimaginable God is essential for everybody because it controls sins by instilling the fear of punishment from God. God and His ways of punishment being unimaginable, one can never escape from them, even though one might be able to escape from the police and the courts in this world. The concept of the Human Incarnation is not necessary for an atheist. The atheist should also have open mind to observe the genuine miracles in this world. The observed genuine miracles are essentially unimaginable events and they prove the existence of their source, who is the unimaginable God. The concept of the Human Incarnation is only essential for nivṛtti, which is the path chosen by devotees who aspire for the extreme grace of God.

The Boundary of Space

Another topic that is controversial for atheists, which is the boundary of the universe or space. If the atheistic scientist says that he will show the boundary of the universe through his research tomorrow, you can also tell him that you too will show the existence of the unimaginable God, heaven and hell, the day after tomorrow!

Space must have a boundary because, if space has no boundary, the boundary of space becomes unknown, even to the omniscient God. Then, God cannot be omniscient due to His ignorance about the boundary of space. Therefore, from the view-point of God, the boundary of space does exist. Beyond that boundary, the unimaginable God alone exists and He is without spatial co-ordinates and hence, without volume. An item without volume cannot be imagined by anybody even after concentrating on it for millions of births and therefore, the God beyond space is unimaginable.
From the view-point of the soul, the existing boundary of the universe can never be reached by the soul because if the soul touches the boundary of space, it touches the unimaginable God existing beyond the boundary of space.

Since the unimaginable God can never be touched even by the imagination of the soul, the boundary of the universe or space can never be touched by the soul. If a ship reaches the boundary of the ocean, it means that it has reached the shore or the land, which exists beyond the boundary of the ocean. Hence, the boundary of the infinite space is untouchable in the sense that it can never be reached by the soul. Assuming that the soul is running to touch the boundary of the universe, the universe appears to continuously expand, so that the soul can never touch the boundary of space. This can be correlated with the scientific concept of the constantly expanding universe. In the Gītā, God Kṛṣṇa has said that His creation is endless, which means that the boundary of His creation can never be touched by the human being or even by the angel (Nā'ntosti mama divyānām…—Gītā). Both the human being and the angel (energetic being) are only souls. God Kṛṣṇa was preaching to Arjuna about the endless creation created by Him (God). So, the universe was said to be endless from the view-point of Arjuna, a human being.

God is the divine Father of all the souls (Ahaṃ bījapradaḥ pitā…–Gītā) and has a lot of affection towards souls. In fact, God’s grace is more on atheists than on theists because the doctor’s attention more necessary for a patient than healthy people. God will never leave any soul, even if he is an atheist! Even if the soul is left by all other souls, who are its brothers and sisters, God, who is the parent, will never leave the atheistic soul. Even if the atheistic soul is thrown by God in to the liquid fire of hell, it is not with vengeance, but only with love, so that the soul may improve (Tānahaṃ dviṣataḥ…—Gītā). Also, the soul is not thrown in to liquid fire forever. It is thrown in to it only until it becomes porous enough to allow the water of spiritual knowledge to enter into it. The word ‘forever’ only means a very long time. If an employee is given a letter which states that he has been made permanent, it means that he is ‘permanent’ only up to the retirement age.

When the soul, losing its rigidity (ego) becomes porous to spiritual learning, the soul is again granted a human rebirth. The liquid fire in hell is the only miracle that can change the atheist making him lose his rigidity. Other miracles will not work with such rigid stones. God Kṛṣṇa exhibited the cosmic vision, but Duryodhana did not change at all. God will exhibit miracles provided God has some hope that the soul will change, be it a theist or an atheist. Miracles are also used by God to help theists or atheists provided there is some hope of their spiritual development. When there is no such hope, the unimaginable God does not exhibit any miracles simply to prove His existence. God is not bothered about proving His existence. He is only bothered about the spiritual development of souls.

-By Shri Datta Swami
www.universal-spirituality[.]org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

[Harbal]

When you approach an atheist and try to change the person through logic,

I would advise you against this, as your grasp of logic seems particularly weak. Besides, why would you want to change an atheist?

after presenting the final logic, which is that there is a 50-50 probability of the existence or non-existence of God.

As I said, logic isn't your strong point.

[Iwannaplato]

So, whenever there is a 50-50 probability, a wise man always errs on the safe side. One must always choose the side with a lower risk.

An atheist does not believe in God. The atheist is not going to be believe in God in case there is a God and so that's safer. That's not how we form beliefs. (apart from the obvious silliness of saying it is a 50% chance, but Harbal got to that issue first).

[iambiguous]

When you approach an atheist and try to change the person through logic, leave the atheist to God, after presenting the final logic, which is that there is a 50-50 probability of the existence or non-existence of God. You should say the following to the atheist:

“This space is infinite and neither you nor I can find its boundary. I cannot show you the existence of hell, heaven or God in this infinite space. But you too cannot show me their absence in this infinite space by taking me up to the boundary of space. Hence, hell may exist or it may not exist.
Here is where a 50-50 probability has to be accepted. Suppose, I believe in the existence of hell and hence, I do not commit sins. Even if, after my death, I find out that there is no hell, there is no loss for me. While I am still alive, I have already enjoyed the benefit of living a tension-free life and not having to bother about the police and courts, since I have not committed any sins. On the other hand, if you commit sins believing that hell does not exist and after your death, if you find out that unfortunately, hell does exist, you are totally lost!

So, whenever there is a 50-50 probability, a wise man always errs on the safe side. One must always choose the side with a lower risk. Let us say there is a blind person walking on the road. One person tells him that there is a fire ahead in his path and another person tells him that there is no fire ahead. Whom should the blind man choose to follow?

Certainly, if he is a wise blind man, he will turn back because even if the fire is absent, there would be no loss to him. But if the blind man is foolish, he will choose to disregard the warning and take the risk of going forward. If unfortunately, there is actually a fire ahead, he will get burnt!
Therefore, choose the side of lower risk given the 50-50 probability and believe in the existence of the unimaginable God, heaven and hell. Worship God with devotion and do meritorious deeds without committing any sins. Even if God, heaven and hell are absent, you will get enough benefit of believing in God, heaven and hell, which is a life of happiness, peace and freedom from even a trace of tension of the police and the courts.
After all, whether a person is a theist or an atheist, all the efforts the person makes in life is only to get this benefit of a peaceful and happy life. Apart from this benefit in this world, there is also the possibility of you getting a huge benefit in the upper worlds after your death, which is very clearly stated by several Godmen and divine scriptures.”

If the atheist leads a worldly life following justice and avoids sins (pravṛtti), it is more than sufficient. Devotional life (nivṛtti) is not mandatory for him. But accepting at least the existence of the unimaginable God is essential for everybody because it controls sins by instilling the fear of punishment from God. God and His ways of punishment being unimaginable, one can never escape from them, even though one might be able to escape from the police and the courts in this world. The concept of the Human Incarnation is not necessary for an atheist. The atheist should also have open mind to observe the genuine miracles in this world. The observed genuine miracles are essentially unimaginable events and they prove the existence of their source, who is the unimaginable God. The concept of the Human Incarnation is only essential for nivṛtti, which is the path chosen by devotees who aspire for the extreme grace of God.

The Boundary of Space

Another topic that is controversial for atheists, which is the boundary of the universe or space. If the atheistic scientist says that he will show the boundary of the universe through his research tomorrow, you can also tell him that you too will show the existence of the unimaginable God, heaven and hell, the day after tomorrow!

Space must have a boundary because, if space has no boundary, the boundary of space becomes unknown, even to the omniscient God. Then, God cannot be omniscient due to His ignorance about the boundary of space. Therefore, from the view-point of God, the boundary of space does exist. Beyond that boundary, the unimaginable God alone exists and He is without spatial co-ordinates and hence, without volume. An item without volume cannot be imagined by anybody even after concentrating on it for millions of births and therefore, the God beyond space is unimaginable.
From the view-point of the soul, the existing boundary of the universe can never be reached by the soul because if the soul touches the boundary of space, it touches the unimaginable God existing beyond the boundary of space.

Since the unimaginable God can never be touched even by the imagination of the soul, the boundary of the universe or space can never be touched by the soul. If a ship reaches the boundary of the ocean, it means that it has reached the shore or the land, which exists beyond the boundary of the ocean. Hence, the boundary of the infinite space is untouchable in the sense that it can never be reached by the soul. Assuming that the soul is running to touch the boundary of the universe, the universe appears to continuously expand, so that the soul can never touch the boundary of space. This can be correlated with the scientific concept of the constantly expanding universe. In the Gītā, God Kṛṣṇa has said that His creation is endless, which means that the boundary of His creation can never be touched by the human being or even by the angel (Nā'ntosti mama divyānām…—Gītā). Both the human being and the angel (energetic being) are only souls. God Kṛṣṇa was preaching to Arjuna about the endless creation created by Him (God). So, the universe was said to be endless from the view-point of Arjuna, a human being.

God is the divine Father of all the souls (Ahaṃ bījapradaḥ pitā…–Gītā) and has a lot of affection towards souls. In fact, God’s grace is more on atheists than on theists because the doctor’s attention more necessary for a patient than healthy people. God will never leave any soul, even if he is an atheist! Even if the soul is left by all other souls, who are its brothers and sisters, God, who is the parent, will never leave the atheistic soul. Even if the atheistic soul is thrown by God in to the liquid fire of hell, it is not with vengeance, but only with love, so that the soul may improve (Tānahaṃ dviṣataḥ…—Gītā). Also, the soul is not thrown in to liquid fire forever. It is thrown in to it only until it becomes porous enough to allow the water of spiritual knowledge to enter into it. The word ‘forever’ only means a very long time. If an employee is given a letter which states that he has been made permanent, it means that he is ‘permanent’ only up to the retirement age.

When the soul, losing its rigidity (ego) becomes porous to spiritual learning, the soul is again granted a human rebirth. The liquid fire in hell is the only miracle that can change the atheist making him lose his rigidity. Other miracles will not work with such rigid stones. God Kṛṣṇa exhibited the cosmic vision, but Duryodhana did not change at all. God will exhibit miracles provided God has some hope that the soul will change, be it a theist or an atheist. Miracles are also used by God to help theists or atheists provided there is some hope of their spiritual development. When there is no such hope, the unimaginable God does not exhibit any miracles simply to prove His existence. God is not bothered about proving His existence. He is only bothered about the spiritual development of souls.

-By Shri Datta Swami
www.universal-spirituality[.]org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

Of course, the thing about "conditions" is that there are just so many of them!!!

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-sup ... -problems/
https://www.verywellmind.com/a-list-of- ... rs-2794776

So, here, how to assign which condition to which poster?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The likelihood of gods existing is exactly 0.

[dattaswami]

The likelihood of gods existing is exactly 0.

Scientists have to accept the existence of the unimaginable nature from the practical example of the unimaginable limits of this infinite universe. Scientists may reject miracles but they cannot reject the unimaginable limits of space. One instance of the existence of an unimaginable entity is sufficient to prove the existence of unimaginable God. Miracles act as supporting evidence of the same concept.


Miracles are very widely distributed in the world to give proof for the existence of God to every human being, which is the basic requirement. If you pray sincerely in a temple or even in an open place, generally God gives you His answer through a miracle.

Many have witnessed this in their lives. Sometimes due to the inevitable fruits of your past deeds, God keeps silent for sometime in spite of your prayers and that time is used for your transformation. Hence, scientists call this as probability or coincidence of events .

Hence, God demonstrates specific miracles through His human form, to meet this twisted interpretation of scientists or atheists. Even devotees and demons do specific miracles.
God has given a wide coverage for spreading miracles since it involves the very basic issue of His existence.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Whatever. Weirdo.

[Harbal]

Whatever. Weirdo.

No, I don't find him very convincing, either.

[bobmax]

The greatest gift of existing is that there are no miracles.

That is, if events occurred whose cause it is impossible to understand, if not by appealing to the supernatural, life would be a mockery.

This is the greatest gift of God.
That is, the fact that God does not exist.

There is a profound difference between existing and being.

We exist but we are not.
God does not exist, God is!

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Proof on here that religion is a mental illness...

[dattaswami]

The greatest gift of existing is that there are no miracles.

That is, if events occurred whose cause it is impossible to understand, if not by appealing to the supernatural, life would be a mockery.

This is the greatest gift of God.
That is, the fact that God does not exist.

There is a profound difference between existing and being.

We exist but we are not.
God does not exist, God is!

God is the only reality and this entire universe is relatively real to God. Reality is granted to creation by God Himself. As a result, creation, which is originally unreal, can appear to be absolutely-real to God and give Him full and real entertainment. Here, the wish of God is important. The existence (reality) of the mud, which is the cause, enters the pot, which is its effect. Hence, the pot also becomes real (existent). However, the reality of the mud does not enter the pot due to the wish of the inert mud. The mud becomes the pot due to the wish of the pot-maker, who is non-inert. So, we can say that the reality of the mud entered the pot due to the wish of the pot-maker.

With regard to the creation-pot, God is both the mud (material-cause) and the pot-maker (intellectual cause). Hence, it is God who has given His existence (reality) to the world by His will. Since the reality of the pot is borrowed from the mud, which is its cause, that property of the reality of the pot is not permanent. It is only an associated or incidental property (taṭastha lakṣaṇam). The reality belongs to the mud forever and that reality (property) is an essential or inherent property of the mud. Thus, existence (reality) always belongs to God and is called the absolute existence or the paramārtha sattā. The reality of the pot is not inherent and is called a relative existence or the vyavahāra sattā.

[Maia]

When you approach an atheist and try to change the person through logic, leave the atheist to God, after presenting the final logic, which is that there is a 50-50 probability of the existence or non-existence of God. You should say the following to the atheist:

“This space is infinite and neither you nor I can find its boundary. I cannot show you the existence of hell, heaven or God in this infinite space. But you too cannot show me their absence in this infinite space by taking me up to the boundary of space. Hence, hell may exist or it may not exist.
Here is where a 50-50 probability has to be accepted. Suppose, I believe in the existence of hell and hence, I do not commit sins. Even if, after my death, I find out that there is no hell, there is no loss for me. While I am still alive, I have already enjoyed the benefit of living a tension-free life and not having to bother about the police and courts, since I have not committed any sins. On the other hand, if you commit sins believing that hell does not exist and after your death, if you find out that unfortunately, hell does exist, you are totally lost!

So, whenever there is a 50-50 probability, a wise man always errs on the safe side. One must always choose the side with a lower risk. Let us say there is a blind person walking on the road. One person tells him that there is a fire ahead in his path and another person tells him that there is no fire ahead. Whom should the blind man choose to follow?

Certainly, if he is a wise blind man, he will turn back because even if the fire is absent, there would be no loss to him. But if the blind man is foolish, he will choose to disregard the warning and take the risk of going forward. If unfortunately, there is actually a fire ahead, he will get burnt!
Therefore, choose the side of lower risk given the 50-50 probability and believe in the existence of the unimaginable God, heaven and hell. Worship God with devotion and do meritorious deeds without committing any sins. Even if God, heaven and hell are absent, you will get enough benefit of believing in God, heaven and hell, which is a life of happiness, peace and freedom from even a trace of tension of the police and the courts.
After all, whether a person is a theist or an atheist, all the efforts the person makes in life is only to get this benefit of a peaceful and happy life. Apart from this benefit in this world, there is also the possibility of you getting a huge benefit in the upper worlds after your death, which is very clearly stated by several Godmen and divine scriptures.”

If the atheist leads a worldly life following justice and avoids sins (pravṛtti), it is more than sufficient. Devotional life (nivṛtti) is not mandatory for him. But accepting at least the existence of the unimaginable God is essential for everybody because it controls sins by instilling the fear of punishment from God. God and His ways of punishment being unimaginable, one can never escape from them, even though one might be able to escape from the police and the courts in this world. The concept of the Human Incarnation is not necessary for an atheist. The atheist should also have open mind to observe the genuine miracles in this world. The observed genuine miracles are essentially unimaginable events and they prove the existence of their source, who is the unimaginable God. The concept of the Human Incarnation is only essential for nivṛtti, which is the path chosen by devotees who aspire for the extreme grace of God.

The Boundary of Space

Another topic that is controversial for atheists, which is the boundary of the universe or space. If the atheistic scientist says that he will show the boundary of the universe through his research tomorrow, you can also tell him that you too will show the existence of the unimaginable God, heaven and hell, the day after tomorrow!

Space must have a boundary because, if space has no boundary, the boundary of space becomes unknown, even to the omniscient God. Then, God cannot be omniscient due to His ignorance about the boundary of space. Therefore, from the view-point of God, the boundary of space does exist. Beyond that boundary, the unimaginable God alone exists and He is without spatial co-ordinates and hence, without volume. An item without volume cannot be imagined by anybody even after concentrating on it for millions of births and therefore, the God beyond space is unimaginable.
From the view-point of the soul, the existing boundary of the universe can never be reached by the soul because if the soul touches the boundary of space, it touches the unimaginable God existing beyond the boundary of space.

Since the unimaginable God can never be touched even by the imagination of the soul, the boundary of the universe or space can never be touched by the soul. If a ship reaches the boundary of the ocean, it means that it has reached the shore or the land, which exists beyond the boundary of the ocean. Hence, the boundary of the infinite space is untouchable in the sense that it can never be reached by the soul. Assuming that the soul is running to touch the boundary of the universe, the universe appears to continuously expand, so that the soul can never touch the boundary of space. This can be correlated with the scientific concept of the constantly expanding universe. In the Gītā, God Kṛṣṇa has said that His creation is endless, which means that the boundary of His creation can never be touched by the human being or even by the angel (Nā'ntosti mama divyānām…—Gītā). Both the human being and the angel (energetic being) are only souls. God Kṛṣṇa was preaching to Arjuna about the endless creation created by Him (God). So, the universe was said to be endless from the view-point of Arjuna, a human being.

God is the divine Father of all the souls (Ahaṃ bījapradaḥ pitā…–Gītā) and has a lot of affection towards souls. In fact, God’s grace is more on atheists than on theists because the doctor’s attention more necessary for a patient than healthy people. God will never leave any soul, even if he is an atheist! Even if the soul is left by all other souls, who are its brothers and sisters, God, who is the parent, will never leave the atheistic soul. Even if the atheistic soul is thrown by God in to the liquid fire of hell, it is not with vengeance, but only with love, so that the soul may improve (Tānahaṃ dviṣataḥ…—Gītā). Also, the soul is not thrown in to liquid fire forever. It is thrown in to it only until it becomes porous enough to allow the water of spiritual knowledge to enter into it. The word ‘forever’ only means a very long time. If an employee is given a letter which states that he has been made permanent, it means that he is ‘permanent’ only up to the retirement age.

When the soul, losing its rigidity (ego) becomes porous to spiritual learning, the soul is again granted a human rebirth. The liquid fire in hell is the only miracle that can change the atheist making him lose his rigidity. Other miracles will not work with such rigid stones. God Kṛṣṇa exhibited the cosmic vision, but Duryodhana did not change at all. God will exhibit miracles provided God has some hope that the soul will change, be it a theist or an atheist. Miracles are also used by God to help theists or atheists provided there is some hope of their spiritual development. When there is no such hope, the unimaginable God does not exhibit any miracles simply to prove His existence. God is not bothered about proving His existence. He is only bothered about the spiritual development of souls.

-By Shri Datta Swami
www.universal-spirituality[.]org
Universal Spirituality for World Peace

+++So, whenever there is a 50-50 probability, a wise man always errs on the safe side. One must always choose the side with a lower risk. Let us say there is a blind person walking on the road. One person tells him that there is a fire ahead in his path and another person tells him that there is no fire ahead. Whom should the blind man choose to follow?

Certainly, if he is a wise blind man, he will turn back because even if the fire is absent, there would be no loss to him. But if the blind man is foolish, he will choose to disregard the warning and take the risk of going forward. If unfortunately, there is actually a fire ahead, he will get burnt!+++

On the other hand, perhaps blind people aren't so stupid as to not know when there's a fire in front of them.

[Iwannaplato]

On the other hand, perhaps blind people aren't so stupid as to not know when there's a fire in front of them.

Yes, I thought about that also. Fires are hazards that usually, directly, give off smells and can effect breathing. There are sounds from fires and certainly sounds from the way people react to fires. Blind people in spiritual stories (and sayings) often get treated rather poorly if in metaphors. Further the blind can also judge character with other senses, probably better in some cases.

[Maia]

On the other hand, perhaps blind people aren't so stupid as to not know when there's a fire in front of them.

Yes, I thought about that also. Fires are hazards that usually, directly, give off smells and can effect breathing. There are sounds from fires and certainly sounds from the way people react to fires. Blind people in spiritual stories (and sayings) often get treated rather poorly if in metaphors. Further the blind can also judge character with other senses, probably better in some cases.

Fires also give off heat.

Metaphors like that say more about the person telling them, I think, that whatever point they're trying to get across. Like the one about a group of blind people feeling different parts of an elephant, and mistaking it for different animals. The elephant in the room with this one is, well, the huge great elephant that they're standing right next to in the room with them.

[Dontaskme]

When you approach an atheist and try to change the person through logic, leave the atheist to God, after presenting the final logic, which is that there is a 50-50 probability of the existence or non-existence of God. You should say the following to the atheist:

This space is infinite and neither you nor I can find its boundary.

There is no beginning nor end to that which is boundless.

Meaning, you are birth and deathless.

There is No spirituality to be found.

The I of All that is looks neither out nor in.

'Out and In'... where is that?