How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

What is art? What is beauty?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:14 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:07 am
attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:39 am

Que?
Just referring to the OP title.
...sorry. Didn't real eyes the OP title had me defined as an illiterate little twerp. 8)
Did you write the OP? I thought it was someone else. So exhausting...
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attofishpi
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by attofishpi »

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:48 am
attofishpi wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:14 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:07 am

Just referring to the OP title.
...sorry. Didn't real eyes the OP title had me defined as an illiterate little twerp. 8)
Did you write the OP? I thought it was someone else. So exhausting...
Oh. For once I may have been paranoid...without the effect of Pa_annoyed.
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MagsJ
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by MagsJ »

_
Our senses tell us whether something is beautiful or not via our bio-feedback-loop, of pain/pleasure, happy/sad, etc., so what we think/feel, after the fact, of looking.
popeye1945
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:40 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:08 am
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm I know that beauty is in eyes of the beholder. But I was wondering how we realize something as beautiful or ugly. To me, that is the duty of the subconscious mind to provide a sense of beauty or ugly with the subject of our experience. The reality is that there are all just forms that we experience and non of them is either beautiful or ugly.
bahman,

All meaning is in the eye or consciousness of the beholder, but there are things that constitute the beautiful and the ugly/monstrosities. There are degrees of the beautiful and the further an object or organism is from the beautiful the closer the object or organism is to non-existence, monstrosities by their form, structure and thus constitution are on the edge of existence. Beauty is relative to well being. It is not difficult for the adult or senior to appreciate the beauty of healthy youthfulness, the vitality the radiance the energy all constitute a beautiful child. If one is talking about other creatures the same applies how close is the individual to the ideal of his species, nature chooses the most fit to survive, that means fine in form and structure. There is even beauty in simplicity when form, structure and function are beautiful in the given example of its kind. We see too that in society we all tend to treat the beautiful better than the run of the mill, the just adaquate or homely individual, being unattractive in society is a heavy burden, often needing a strong character to carry that burden. Beauty is the essence of natural and artificial selection with all things in the right measure, ordered, balanced etc. Weakness, ware, illness and time all detract from the beautiful, for all things including the beautiful are temporal.
I understand what you are saying but that does not answer my question.
bahman,
It all speaks to the orders of being the order of our own being, one doesn't need a diploma to recognize that certain characteristics certain qualities are not manifest in an object. We are use to the order of beings being all around us, samples of every species of object animate or inanimate. You might have a point yet, I wonder how much it depends upon the health and the order of the observer, can someone of very low intelligence not recognize the beautiful when it is indeed that? Sorry guess your right, I didn't make it clear in the above. Maybe it is something like Hume's statement about cause and effect we don't really see the process but it is more the habit that it is assumed, we take for granted a certain standard of things as a precondition.
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Rita
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Rita »

I think that God put the sense of beauty in human beings. We like beautiful things, beautiful people. We are touched when we see cute animals or little children. we like to eat good food, we like beautiful food. The human being himself is beautiful. a flawless creature. And when it comes to pregnancy, it's something magical. How beautifully he created woman, man lives in man! It's a beautiful period to prepare for. ways to prep your body for pregnancy. it's important, because a woman has to carry a baby for 9 months.
popeye1945
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by popeye1945 »

Rita wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:41 pm I think that God put the sense of beauty in human beings. We like beautiful things, beautiful people. We are touched when we see cute animals or little children. we like to eat good food, we like beautiful food. The human being himself is beautiful. a flawless creature. And when it comes to pregnancy, it's something magical. How beautifully he created woman, man lives in man! It's a beautiful period to prepare for. ways to prep your body for pregnancy. it's important, because a woman has to carry a baby for 9 months.
Which God/s? God is dead my dear, Darwin killed him- - lol!! Don't mind me just acting out! Welcome to philosophy now!!
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm I know that beauty is in eyes of the beholder. But I was wondering how we realize something as beautiful or ugly. To me, that is the duty of the subconscious mind to provide a sense of beauty or ugly with the subject of our experience. The reality is that there are all just forms that we experience and non of them is either beautiful or ugly.
I happened to be reading Kant on Aesthetic Judgment.

To answer the OP one need to have a precise meaning of the terms;
1. Beauty
2. Realize
Kant distinguishes between
1. the pleasant (das Angenehme),
2. the beautiful (das SchOne) and
3. the Good (das Gute)
as designating three Relations in which Representations can stand to the Feelings of Pleasure and Displeasure or pain.

The pleasant is that which gratifies inclination or Desire, and it is Experienced by animals as well as by men.

The Good is the Object of esteem: it is that to which Objective worth is attributed.
And it concerns all Rational Beings, including Rational Beings, if there are any, which are not Human Beings; that is, which have no bodies.

The beautiful is that which simply pleases, without any intrinsic reference to inclination or Desire.
It is Experienced only by Rational Beings, but not by all.
That is to say, it involves sense-Perception and so concerns only those Rational Beings which possess bodies.

Further, the Aesthetic Judgment, according to Kant, is indifferent to Existence.
Copleston on Kant
As such, what is beautiful is that which is inherently 'programmed' to be 'beautiful' [as defined] in ALL humans.
But if I say that a certain work of Art is beautiful, I tacitly claim, according to Kant, that it is beautiful for ALL.
I claim, that is to say, that the Judgment is based,
not upon purely private Feelings, so that it has validity only for myself,
but upon Feelings which I either attribute to others or demand of them.
ibid
Evolutionary, what is 'beautiful' is grounded on it contribution to the well being and that facilitate the survival of the individual which has linkage to the 'pleasure' circuit and other related circuits in the brain; not to the pain circuit.

But note, Kant asserted what is 'beautiful' is only triggered in all rational beings.

What is critical here which Kant in his time could not consider & worst cannot verify and justify the actual physical neural circuits that are responsible in triggering what is termed 'beautiful'; we need to ensure it has nothing linked to evil and immoral.

That which triggered beauty [as defined] must then be aligned with the relevant neural circuits and algorithm inherent within ALL humans and realizable only by rational beings.

For example, in photography some of the fundamentals of a beautiful photo is the objects must align within the 'Rule of the Third'
https://digital-photography-school.com/rule-of-thirds/

or the horizon [especially of the sea] within a photo must be horizontal.

All these elements [and there are many others] are evolutionary tied to the well being of the individual[s].

Realized Beauty?
When the relevant features of an object aligns with the 'beauty' algorithm, there is that intuitive specific feeling of 'beautiful'.
I would not call this realization.
Realization of what is beautiful is when the related feelings are understood conceptually as "beautiful" and better still with awareness of the beauty circuit in one's brain. This is why Kant qualified 'rational beings' to "beautiful".
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Ansiktsburk »

There's this deep dessert plates my parents used. richly ornamented with a detailed fruit painted at the bottom. Especially the one with pink ad gold lining and a plum in the bottom, I just wanted to puke if I got that plate in front of me. Without any reason I can think of it was just abhorrent to me. But I cannot really say that it was ugly.
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by popeye1945 »

"How do we realize something is ugly?" I would say that the way we realize something is ugly is how something affects us, which can be mind-blowingly complex involving as it would one's whole history of experiences. There is I think though a base experience that the condition of said matter needs to meet certain standards in order to be beautiful, violating these standards involves the degrees of ugly, these standards of course are often referred to in the study of art proportion, balance, form, and function, etc. Without a doubt though it is our experience of the subject matter and this can vary widely among individuals, the old saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder seems a truism.
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Walker »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm I know that beauty is in eyes of the beholder. But I was wondering how we realize something as beautiful or ugly. To me, that is the duty of the subconscious mind to provide a sense of beauty or ugly with the subject of our experience. The reality is that there are all just forms that we experience and non of them is either beautiful or ugly.
Because of subject/object duality of mind, and because of physical bilateral symmetry, beauty of form and face is inherently recognized on a scale of symmetry, and this not dependent upon cultural interpretation or training. A perfectly symmetrical face and body is beautiful to anyone in any culture, although expressions are sometimes culturally dependent. Beautiful behavior is recognized as appropriateness, which is culturally dependent but also linked to the body’s inherent sense of symmetry, proportion, balance, and the economy of both mind and body motion. Physical proportions can be mathmatically measured and symmetry of form follows certain guidelines of proportion.

Because of this, we recognize Jabba the Hutt as ugly because his body is an amorphous mass, and while his face is symmetrical, the juxtaposition of symmetry and jellyfish just makes more ugly, which could account for his ugly disposition.

"It's unfortunate what we find pleasing to the touch and pleasing to the eye is seldom the same." - Fabienne
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Agent Smith »

Westwards ho! Er ... I mean Eastwards ... ho ... hehe!
popeye1945
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by popeye1945 »

The closer to perfection or the fitter an organism/object is to the fitness to be in existence might be the measure of beauty. The further away from this fitness is the ugly. then the monstrosity measured right to the edge of non-existence. The lack of fitness/beauty subtracts in the direction of death.
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm I know that beauty is in eyes of the beholder. But I was wondering how we realize something as beautiful or ugly.
NO one 'realizes' some 'thing' is 'beautiful' NOR 'ugly'. Some 'thing' is just EITHER 'beautiful' OR 'ugly' to each one.

one, however, may 'come-to-realize' that some 'thing' is 'beautiful' OR 'ugly' AFTER they had previously thought otherwise. But, that 'thing', which has 'changed' from being 'beautiful' to 'ugly, or vice-versa, is still NOT EITHER, in and of themselves. 'Things' are just EITHER 'beautiful' OR 'ugly' ALL DEPENDING on HOW one is LOOKING AT or SEEING 'things'. Which, as one poster might well say here in this forum, EVERY 'thing' DEPENDS on IF one is LOOKING and SEEING with 'real eyes' or not.

SEE, it is ONLY from LEARNING and/or KNOWING thy True, or REAL, Self that that one is then ABLE TO SEE with REAL EYES, or more correctly the REAL EYE, and thus be ABLE TO REALIZE, and distinguish between, what IS Truly 'beautiful' and what IS Truly 'ugly', in Life.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm To me, that is the duty of the subconscious mind to provide a sense of beauty or ugly with the subject of our experience.
1. you would FIRST HAVE TO KNOW, FOR SURE, what the Mind, Itself, IS, EXACTLY.
2. BEFORE you could KNOW, FOR SURE, IF there REALLY did exist a so-called 'subconscious mind'.
3. To THEN KNOW, FOR SURE, WHAT the so-called 'duty of the subconscious mind' was, EXACTLY.
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm The reality is that there are all just forms that we experience and non of them is either beautiful or ugly.
SO, the so-called 'duty of the subconscious mind' to provide a sense of beauty or ugly is REALLY NON-EXISTENT then, correct?

Also, is the experience of child abuse NOT 'ugly', to 'you', bahman?
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Age »

popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:08 am
bahman wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm I know that beauty is in eyes of the beholder. But I was wondering how we realize something as beautiful or ugly. To me, that is the duty of the subconscious mind to provide a sense of beauty or ugly with the subject of our experience. The reality is that there are all just forms that we experience and non of them is either beautiful or ugly.
bahman,

All meaning is in the eye or consciousness of the beholder, but there are things that constitute the beautiful and the ugly/monstrosities. There are degrees of the beautiful and the further an object or organism is from the beautiful the closer the object or organism is to non-existence, monstrosities by their form, structure and thus constitution are on the edge of existence. Beauty is relative to well being. It is not difficult for the adult or senior to appreciate the beauty of healthy youthfulness, the vitality the radiance the energy all constitute a beautiful child. If one is talking about other creatures the same applies how close is the individual to the ideal of his species, nature chooses the most fit to survive, that means fine in form and structure.
Which HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with what you, personally, would call 'the beauty of healthy youthfulness' NOR 'the vitality the radiance the energy all constitute a beautiful child'. Also, Nature, Itself, does NOT choose the 'most fit to survive'. This is just ANOTHER MISCONCEPTION, MISINTERPRETATION, and MISREPRESENTATION of Nature, EVOLUTION, and the SAYING, 'survival of the fittest'.
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:08 am There is even beauty in simplicity when form, structure and function are beautiful in the given example of its kind. We see too that in society we all tend to treat the beautiful better than the run of the mill, the just adaquate or homely individual, being unattractive in society is a heavy burden, often needing a strong character to carry that burden.
But there is NO ACTUAL such 'thing' as 'the beautiful' in relation to 'you', human beings. 'you', adults, just say, 'There is'.

IF 'you' treat "others" DIFFERENTLY, then this is because 'you', individually, SEE 'beauty' AND 'ugliness' where NONE lies.
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:08 am Beauty is the essence of natural and artificial selection with all things in the right measure, ordered, balanced etc.
Now this is FAR MORE correct.
popeye1945 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:08 am Weakness, ware, illness and time all detract from the beautiful, for all things including the beautiful are temporal.
An egg at 'conception' has the EXACT SAME 'beauty/ugliness' as a new born baby, which are both just as 'beautiful' and 'ugly' as one at 'death'. Well to some of 'us' anyway.

ACTUAL 'beauty' is FOREVER. Whereas, 'ugliness', CAME as 'it' ENDED, which IS TEMPORAL.
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Re: How do we realize something to be beautiful or ugly?

Post by Age »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:26 am
bahman wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:40 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:44 am Physics
How it is done?
vegetarian,

I the case of human-made objects skill as an artishan is helpful, in the case of organisms either artificial selection, natural selection or sexual selection one can tell if the organism or object is a beautiful specimen of its kind.
LOL What are 'you' basing 'your' TELLING 'on', EXACTLY, "popeye1945"?

Also, WHEN 'you' say some 'thing' is 'beautiful' and ANOTHER says that that 'thing' is 'ugly', which one can TELL what the ACTUAL Truth IS in regards to 'beautiness' and 'ugliness' of a specimen of its so-called 'kind'?
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:26 am Monstrosities of objects or organisms do not tend to function in kind and therefore are destined for the dustbin or perish by natural selection.
Here is a GREAT EXAMPLE of WHY 'humankind', or more correctly 'human beings' or 'humanity', is falling to bits, in the days when this is being written.

That is; they JUDGE each "other" as being 'beautiful' or 'ugly', and by their very OWN mis/behaviors FORCE "others" to 'function', in a particular or PREJUDGED way, or 'not function'. The RIDICULING of "others", because of some PRECONCEIVED 'beauty' or 'ugly', CAUSES those ones to NOT 'function', 'in kind', which then is what was leading 'humanity' in the days when this was being written, to the 'dustbin' or 'perish' by NATURAL SELECTION.

The REALLY could NOT YET SEE that THEIR JUDGING was one of the BIGGEST CAUSES of their OWN DOWNFALL.
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:26 am Nature is a harsh judge and executioner in sorting the healthy adapted organism from the ill-adapted.
And, the JUDGING adult human being IS, and WAS, one of the MOST 'ill-adapted' animals to exist. As can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVED IRREFUTABLY True.
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:26 am All things can be reduced to physics
Can they?
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:26 am but the processes involved vary according to the nature of the function of the object or organism.
What IS the nature of the function of the object and organism - 'human being'?
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