Art and truth

What is art? What is beauty?

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Janoah
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Art and truth

Post by Janoah »

They say: "True art!"
But what makes art true, what are the criteria for its truth?
It is clear that neither the photographic accuracy of the image of the object, nor the accurate playing of the notes.
It is possible to paint an object that does not exist in the nature at all, and a robot can play notes in a more accurate way than any musician.

And what makes art to art?
Impenitent
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Impenitent »

that depends on the definitions of truth and art

-Imp
Nick_A
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Nick_A »

Janoah wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:24 pm They say: "True art!"
But what makes art true, what are the criteria for its truth?
It is clear that neither the photographic accuracy of the image of the object, nor the accurate playing of the notes.
It is possible to paint an object that does not exist in the nature at all, and a robot can play notes in a more accurate way than any musician.

And what makes art to art?
It will help if you can provide an example of paintings and music which you believe produces art and those which you define as just expression
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Janoah
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Janoah »

Impenitent wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:32 pm that depends on the definitions of truth and art
I agree with you.
I would be grateful for your answer in accordance with your definition of art and truth.
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Janoah
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Janoah »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:11 pm
It will help if you can provide an example of paintings and music which you believe produces art and those which you define as just expression
Apparently, everything that a person has involved himself in is to some extent related to art,
("All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"
).

But my question is, what are the criteria for its truth in your opinion?
Nick_A
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Nick_A »

Janoah wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:33 pm
Nick_A wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:11 pm
It will help if you can provide an example of paintings and music which you believe produces art and those which you define as just expression
Apparently, everything that a person has involved himself in is to some extent related to art,
("All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"
).

But my question is, what are the criteria for its truth in your opinion?
I would say that art to be called art be capable of producing a direct communiction between the artist, the receiver, by means of a work of art capable of producing this quality of communication. Tolstoy explains:
In order correctly to define art, it is necessary, first of all, to cease to consider it as a means to pleasure and to consider it as one of the conditions of human life. Viewing it in this way we cannot fail to observe that art is one of the means of intercourse between man and man.

Every work of art causes the receiver to enter into a certain kind of relationship both with him who produced, or is producing, the art, and with all those who, simultaneously, previously, or subsequently, receive the same artistic impression.

[…]

The activity of art is based on the fact that a man, receiving through his sense of hearing or sight another man’s expression of feeling, is capable of experiencing the emotion which moved the man who expressed it. … And it is upon this capacity of man to receive another man’s expression of feeling and experience those feelings himself, that the activity of art is based...........................
So for me art occurs. It happens when the artist by means of a work of art enables the receiver to experience the emotion intended by the artist. When there is no communication it is called expression.
Belinda
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Belinda »

Janoah wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:24 pm They say: "True art!"
But what makes art true, what are the criteria for its truth?
It is clear that neither the photographic accuracy of the image of the object, nor the accurate playing of the notes.
It is possible to paint an object that does not exist in the nature at all, and a robot can play notes in a more accurate way than any musician.

And what makes art to art?
'Art is true' is a matter of fact, and archaeology currently shows it has always been a true part of the life of homo sapiens.
I think the phrase you need is 'work of art'.
The public criterion for an artefact's being a work of art is its inclusion or non-inclusion in an art gallery.
The private criterion is absolutely one's own.

However there is a lot to be said for learning the idiom from experience of it. Also,the people who select what some big art gallery is going to hang should be unbiased by self interest or political pressures.

I sort of agree with Nick. But I'd say 'meaning' not 'emotions'.
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Impenitent »

Janoah wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:20 pm
Impenitent wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:32 pm that depends on the definitions of truth and art
I agree with you.
I would be grateful for your answer in accordance with your definition of art and truth.
in accordance, it is up to the judge/definer

"My truth is not your truth" - B. Lee

-Imp
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Janoah
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Janoah »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:53 am So for me art occurs. It happens when the artist by means of a work of art enables the receiver to experience the emotion intended by the artist. When there is no communication it is called expression.
I agree with you and Tolstoy.
I am very interested in Tolstoy's worldview statements.
By the way, at the end of his life, Tolstoy said that he appreciates his worldview articles more than his famous novels.

But in these quotes of him above, I do not see the theme of truth.
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Janoah »

Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:38 am
'Art is true' is a matter of fact,

'Art is a lie that tells the truth', maybe this is also a fact.
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Janoah »

Impenitent wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:58 pm

"My truth is not your truth"
My truth, your truth, and at the bottom of a well.
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Nick_A »

Janoah wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:45 pm
Nick_A wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:53 am So for me art occurs. It happens when the artist by means of a work of art enables the receiver to experience the emotion intended by the artist. When there is no communication it is called expression.
I agree with you and Tolstoy.
I am very interested in Tolstoy's worldview statements.
By the way, at the end of his life, Tolstoy said that he appreciates his worldview articles more than his famous novels.

But in these quotes of him above, I do not see the theme of truth.
Tolstoy once said that "The truth is obtained like gold, not by letting it grow bigger, but by washing off from it everything that isn't gold."
"...It is not for man to seek, or even to believe in God. He has only to refuse to believe in everything that is not God. This refusal does not presuppose belief. It is enough to recognize, what is obvious to any mind, that all the goods of this world, past, present, or future, real or imaginary, are finite and limited and radically incapable of satisfying the desire which burns perpetually with in us for an infinite and perfect good... It is not a matter of self-questioning or searching. A man has only to persist in his refusal, and one day or another God will come to him."
-- Weil, Simone, ON SCIENCE, NECESSITY, AND THE LOVE OF GOD, edited by Richard Rees, London, Oxford University Press, 1968.- ©
Perhaps when the seeker of truth begins to recognize BS for what it is, then the truth will gradually appear. But arguing BS is too attractive to sacrifice.
Belinda
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Belinda »

Janoah wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:53 pm
Belinda wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:38 am
'Art is true' is a matter of fact,

'Art is a lie that tells the truth', maybe this is also a fact.
Art is something homo sapiens does and ,if archeologists and anthropologists are correct, art is always and everywhere what homo sapiens did and does.

I guess you mean the content of art works is fiction that tells the truth. A representation is not the thing itself, to be sure.

To evaluate a work of art the truth criterion is vital. This truth may be avant garde, and the avant garde is even more important than well -established and perhaps derivative themes.

Truth and beauty are neither truth nor beauty unless the artist is sincere and , if not academically knowledgeable, knows the theme she is depicting whether this is a popular or an intellectual theme
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Nick_A »

A work of art has an author and yet, when it is perfect, it has something which is anonymous about it. (Simone Weil)
.

A deep idea. What does anonymous mean?

http://users.rowan.edu/~clowney/Aesthet ... 20delusion.
Plato had a love-hate relationship with the arts. He must have had some love for the arts, because he talks about them often, and his remarks show that he paid close attention to what he saw and heard. He was also a fine literary stylist and a great story-teller; in fact he is said to have been a poet before he encountered Socrates and became a philosopher. Some of his dialogues are real literary masterpieces. On the other hand, he found the arts threatening. He proposed sending the poets and playwrights out of his ideal Republic, or at least censoring what they wrote; and he wanted music and painting severely censored. The arts, he thought, are powerful shapers of character. Thus, to train and protect ideal citizens for an ideal society, the arts must be strictly controlled...................
If art has the potential to be perfect, obviously attempts to pervert it into expression are dangerous for the human essence. Art is one thing and expression is another. Plato knew the difference. This is an important but also a dangerous idea. Socrates had to be eliminated since he suggested there was a difference.
Belinda
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Re: Art and truth

Post by Belinda »

Nick_A wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:06 pm
A work of art has an author and yet, when it is perfect, it has something which is anonymous about it. (Simone Weil)
.

A deep idea. What does anonymous mean?

Such a good saying!Such a good metaphor!
'Anonymous' ,in the context of a good work of art, means the author of the work and the audience for the work all have the same affections in common with each other. So it is the relationship between author and audience that the author has sourced. Truth must always be relationships , but never be pinned down like a dead butterfly.
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