Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

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AllyPike
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Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by AllyPike » Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:31 am

3 is a magic number according to School house rock. There’s a song. Three is culturally significant across the world. 1/3 is an infinite number. 3/4 is the time signature for most lullabies in European music and the sexy waltz. Should we be paying more attention to the third? I’m not really sure how it matters because I’m struggling with whether or not we should accept any human imperatives in terms of ethics, but we all have some moral imperative to go positive. Nature sort of does too. Negative charges move towards positive (particle theory). Human cultures have binary too. But cultures threes and thirds strongly. What does this affinity towards 1/3 mean? We can’t answer but can you direct me towards scholars or philosophers who identify 1/3?

Impenitent
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by Impenitent » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:45 pm

every human born from the union of a man and a woman is the third of that grouping... (twins and the like excepted)

somehow universal...

-Imp

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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by -1- » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:16 am

There is the third law of thermodynamics, the most important law. It's one-third of the first three laws of thermodynamics.

There is the first trimester, the second trimester, and third trimester of a fetus' development.

There is the first period in a hockey game, the second period, and the third period.

There is the holy trinity.

Liberty, Equality, Solidarity.

The three parts of the triumvirat.

Then there is the three distinct part of victory, in the Triumph.

Then there is the three legs of the Arch de Triumph in Paris, France.

The classic threesome comprises three lovers. Not two, not four, but three.

A triangle has three sides, and three angles. And, get this, it has three dissects that connect an angle with the midpoints of the opposing sides.

A human has three eyes, three ears, and three soap carving figurines.

Mickey Mouse has three fingers on each hand (and a thumb in addition to those.)

Scott Mayers
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by Scott Mayers » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:05 am

AllyPike wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:31 am
3 is a magic number according to School house rock. There’s a song. Three is culturally significant across the world. 1/3 is an infinite number. 3/4 is the time signature for most lullabies in European music and the sexy waltz. Should we be paying more attention to the third? I’m not really sure how it matters because I’m struggling with whether or not we should accept any human imperatives in terms of ethics, but we all have some moral imperative to go positive. Nature sort of does too. Negative charges move towards positive (particle theory). Human cultures have binary too. But cultures threes and thirds strongly. What does this affinity towards 1/3 mean? We can’t answer but can you direct me towards scholars or philosophers who identify 1/3?
Zero, one, two, and three, play the most significant roles in reality in ALL areas of real life. I think that the 'third' factor, as signified by '-1-' and 'Impenitent' here gives good examples. I think the magic of a third is due to "contradiction" (which literally comes from meaning, "with a third (factor)", where we normally assume balance or symmetry in reality ('even' concept). I think of it similar in logic with respect to Zero, One, and Infinity. A third suffices as a kind of 'trigger' to do more or look elsewhere (like a new dimension) regarding things and so is a 'constructive' type of thing.

As for music, I am not exactly sure what you mean unless you are referencing the general blues 1-3-4 pattern of a major scale that is most common in all music but most uniquely specific in relatively 'easy' music. Since much of 'rock' permits anyone to participate, the reduced most common form of it is of that 1-3-4 pattern to be most universally appealing.

The Pythagoreans were the ones most involved in making sense of these things where this also relates to the first 'physics' revolving around dividing a string into differing standing waves. But this includes as much the concepts of unison and binary concepts. The division into 12 semi-tones is of the prime factors of 1, 2, and 3. The common denominator would normally have been 6 (rather than 12) but they noticed that you have to count both sides of where some 'bridge' is created. For example, a 'dominant' note of a major scale (a fifth) is included because its 'complement' of all eight notes even of the major scale is equivalent to a third below. That is a 'fifth' can be thought of as (-3 + eight*) where '8' is the 'octave'. The complete 12 notes derives from halfing the length of a string twice (= 4) plus the odd division of splitting the wire into three. But also note that 1/3 of the length of a string is equal to 1/2 of what remains and where the Pythagoreans may have ended up treating a full 'chronological' division into (2 x 2 x 3 = 12 semitones).

Although we think of primes as numbers we use, every number can be treated as the sum of multiples of 2 and multiples of 3. Thus the 'magic' of these numbers to be minimally necessary.

If you are extending this to rhythm, the same thing applies. We can create more than 12 notes divisions of tones and have bars measuring more than thirds by using the same concept (2x + 3y) relationships.

Was this what you were thinking about?

Edit: I had to change "8" into the word "eight" because the stupid priority of social media html turns the eight with a following closed bracket into a smiley face. Does anyone know what the means is here to force a character explicitly to be what you type when it uses combined symbols to represent unique codes?

Edit 2: changed 'many' to 'ALL'. I think the 'third' is significant in all areas necessarily about reality. I also need to add,

Yes, to your question, for overt clarity. But you still need the prior 0, 1, and 2 concepts. I would also include infinity. But you can also think of the third as (1 + 2). So the equation I gave as (2x + 3y) might better be rendered as [2x + (2 + 1)y] and even more clear, make x or y be recursive and include either a power of zero to allow for '1' or add a third term such as "(2 - 1)z". Then you might summarize all realities regarding integers as having the form,

[(2-1)z + 2x + (2+1)y].

Musicians of the past from different cultures have extended the division beyond 12 semitones and so can have more divisions to any number of desired scales. Even if we don't directly use them in most 'western' music, we still do indirectly where we use instruments that permit continuity, such as a bend of a string in a guitar solo that can make a tone outside of the mere 12 divisions.

nothing
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by nothing » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:52 pm

It's not just the third, it is the entire musical scale.

Sound-frequency-vibration has geometric form embedded in it such that different frequencies produce different geometric relationships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJAgrUBF4w

When you say a third, you are implying a tonic key to which that particular third is related.

More generally:

0 = infinite/indefinite
1 = one
2 = another
3 = *(both / neither)

wherein 3 is a *variable (ie. two possible 'states') summation of 1 and 2. Thus further gives rise to 4 as relativity: in some cases both, in others neither which is sufficient for any basic structure. This is universal even from an epistemological perspective:

A believes B is evil. (conflict)
B believes A is evil. (conflict)
C knows neither know from which tree they eat. (no conflict)

Whereas A (1) and B (2) are both ignorant relative to C, thus neither truly knowledgeable, C (3) is not subject to the inevitable conflict between A and B the consequences of which scale directly with their own ignorance. Thus it follows that it would certainly take a believer to ever believe whatever is truly evil, is good and/or whatever is truly good, is evil. Knowledge is merely the absence of such a belief-based confusion which effectively negates the suffering associated with any such belief-based ignorance.

Numbers are not merely mundane constructs: they have integral properties which invariably apply universally.

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Sculptor
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by Sculptor » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:03 am

AllyPike wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:31 am
3 is a magic number according to School house rock. There’s a song. Three is culturally significant across the world. 1/3 is an infinite number. 3/4 is the time signature for most lullabies in European music and the sexy waltz. Should we be paying more attention to the third? I’m not really sure how it matters because I’m struggling with whether or not we should accept any human imperatives in terms of ethics, but we all have some moral imperative to go positive. Nature sort of does too. Negative charges move towards positive (particle theory). Human cultures have binary too. But cultures threes and thirds strongly. What does this affinity towards 1/3 mean? We can’t answer but can you direct me towards scholars or philosophers who identify 1/3?
Before you can answer this question, you have some far more fundamental problems with understanding western music in the first place.

Since our conventional octave with 12 half tones is not universal then I would imagine that since the 3rd relies wholly on this schema, the 3rd is not universal either.

I wonder if you can tell me why the octave works as it does. Why is it not linear; why does it jump T T sT TTT sT ?

Now tell me why we have generated a system with tones set at the the levels between wavelength as they are? The length between tones was set long before the science which understood wavelength?

is the tone length innate, or learned from an early age and simply acquired by convention?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:53 am

The major scale ia TTsTTTs.
It's a mysterious thing, because even when someone has no knowledge of music theory at all, if you play them a scale and don't stick to this pattern they instinctively know that something is 'wrong'. Same goes if you play them a major chord, then change the major third to a minor third, they can tell you if the chord is major or minor, simply by recognising the different character of the chord. Major third sounds bright (happy), minor third sombre (sad).
The twelve (semi)tone scale is a discovery, rather than an invention.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dachshund
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by Dachshund » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:59 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:53 am
The major scale ia TTsTTTs.
It's a mysterious thing, because even when someone has no knowledge of music theory at all, if you play them a scale and don't stick to this pattern they instinctively know that something is 'wrong'. Same goes if you play them a major chord, then change the major third to a minor third, they can tell you if the chord it major or minor, simply by recognising the different character of the chord. Major third sounds bright (happy), minor third sombre (sad).
The twelve (semi)tone scale is a discovery, rather than an invention.
Veggie,

Can you play a musical instrument ? If yes, what one/s is it ?

Dachshund

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:23 am

Dachshund wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:59 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:53 am
The major scale ia TTsTTTs.
It's a mysterious thing, because even when someone has no knowledge of music theory at all, if you play them a scale and don't stick to this pattern they instinctively know that something is 'wrong'. Same goes if you play them a major chord, then change the major third to a minor third, they can tell you if the chord it major or minor, simply by recognising the different character of the chord. Major third sounds bright (happy), minor third sombre (sad).
The twelve (semi)tone scale is a discovery, rather than an invention.
Veggie,

Can you play a musical instrument ? If yes, what one/s is it ?

Dachshund
Piano (and tin whistle for fun).

Scott Mayers
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by Scott Mayers » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:58 am

Sculptor wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:03 am
AllyPike wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:31 am
3 is a magic number according to School house rock. There’s a song. Three is culturally significant across the world. 1/3 is an infinite number. 3/4 is the time signature for most lullabies in European music and the sexy waltz. Should we be paying more attention to the third? I’m not really sure how it matters because I’m struggling with whether or not we should accept any human imperatives in terms of ethics, but we all have some moral imperative to go positive. Nature sort of does too. Negative charges move towards positive (particle theory). Human cultures have binary too. But cultures threes and thirds strongly. What does this affinity towards 1/3 mean? We can’t answer but can you direct me towards scholars or philosophers who identify 1/3?
Before you can answer this question, you have some far more fundamental problems with understanding western music in the first place.

Since our conventional octave with 12 half tones is not universal then I would imagine that since the 3rd relies wholly on this schema, the 3rd is not universal either.

I wonder if you can tell me why the octave works as it does. Why is it not linear; why does it jump T T sT TTT sT ?

Now tell me why we have generated a system with tones set at the the levels between wavelength as they are? The length between tones was set long before the science which understood wavelength?

is the tone length innate, or learned from an early age and simply acquired by convention?
The original piano forte (now just 'piano') and prior harpsichord, etc, had two sharps between each key. But though some have added variations in different cultures, the original Pythagoreans laid the foundation for waves in physics. They ARE actually unique in some of what I was trying to convey in my prior post. The whole division based upon 2 and 3 have the clearest overtones and so is universal as 'nodes' in waves. 2+2 makes the fourth, 2+3 for fifth, 2+2+3 for the seventh, and then back to 2+3+3 as an 8th or 'octave'.

See Atoms and Waves for some expansion by one site. Technically an infinite such nodes can dived strings but the overtones in what has become the general piano-based major scale is sufficient. The removal of the excess keys in the original keyboard instruments were removed because much of the technique of HOW you strike a string on piano can alter the pitches slightly more or less from the standard. The varients in between help color the music and adding different scales from some cultures relates more to the historical means of mimicking the way the sounds relate to things that may be hidden within number lore of the ancients.

There is also two kinds of tuning in general that can be used for regular tuning. One is by the literal divisions by ruler and the other is by the ear because our ear too acts to alter HOW we hear and in certain ranges the ear interprets something slightly pitched off the literal measure. This is also due to the fact that low pitches may sound less loud in the same room but oppositely carry through walls. Air waves also follow gravity.

Dachshund
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by Dachshund » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:53 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:23 am
Dachshund wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:59 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:53 am
The major scale ia TTsTTTs.
It's a mysterious thing, because even when someone has no knowledge of music theory at all, if you play them a scale and don't stick to this pattern they instinctively know that something is 'wrong'. Same goes if you play them a major chord, then change the major third to a minor third, they can tell you if the chord it major or minor, simply by recognising the different character of the chord. Major third sounds bright (happy), minor third sombre (sad).
The twelve (semi)tone scale is a discovery, rather than an invention.
Veggie,

Can you play a musical instrument ? If yes, what one/s is it ?

Dachshund
Piano (and tin whistle for fun).

That's cool, Veggie. I would love to be able to play piano.

D

DMT
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Re: Is the idea of a third in music somehow universal?

Post by DMT » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:24 am

Ok I suggest learning how tonal scales.developed.in Western culture. The. Jack's statement makes.more.sense..
.

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