Statue removal

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:18 pm

Skip wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:23 pm
Londoner wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:52 am
I would think a better solution would be to leave Lee and put up another statue, one that symbolises how that society thinks about itself now. The juxtaposition would both change the meaning of the Lee statue and add meaning to the new one. The existence of the two monuments side by side would then represent change, progress.
That might have worked in 1960 or '70. Quietly removing the go-Dixie monuments one by one, to low-profile places of safety, night have worked.
Now, it's far too late. It no longer matters what happens to each of the specific monuments, small and large, in any of the southern states that still have a significant Confederate attitude. It doesn't matter what was in the minds of the people who raised the statues or in the minds of the dead men they depict. Nobody's reading minds. What's being read is the simplest possible message - because tweets and slogans and symbols are the only means of communication in America anymore. These monuments have become focal points of division and animosity that have continued to simmer just below the surface of pretend civil accord, but could always be exploited for political advantage. Now they're in the open, with presidential approval, nobody's going to talk them back down.

The USA is broken. Has been for a long time, but it looked, briefly, as if it might heal. Not anymore. A people addicted to obsolescence decided last fall that it's easier to throw their country away than try to repair it. Unfortunately, they've already maxed out their credit and can't buy a new one.

Interesting times.
If you want to blame the alt-righters exploiting the false pretense and meaning of this statue, I think it's only fair to do the same to these so-called 'progressive' activists who cry about race relations, while also completely misunderstanding the intention and history behind why the statue stands. I'm sure most of these people couldn't even point to Africa on a map, but they have the gall to get upset based on the propaganda of their peers.

I don't care about what happens to the statue, I'm not particularly patriotic or nostalgic of US history - it's just going to be put in a museum anyway - I do care if it's done to appease the ignorant, based on that ignorance.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:21 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:18 pm
Skip wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:23 pm
Londoner wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:52 am
I would think a better solution would be to leave Lee and put up another statue, one that symbolises how that society thinks about itself now. The juxtaposition would both change the meaning of the Lee statue and add meaning to the new one. The existence of the two monuments side by side would then represent change, progress.
That might have worked in 1960 or '70. Quietly removing the go-Dixie monuments one by one, to low-profile places of safety, night have worked.
Now, it's far too late. It no longer matters what happens to each of the specific monuments, small and large, in any of the southern states that still have a significant Confederate attitude. It doesn't matter what was in the minds of the people who raised the statues or in the minds of the dead men they depict. Nobody's reading minds. What's being read is the simplest possible message - because tweets and slogans and symbols are the only means of communication in America anymore. These monuments have become focal points of division and animosity that have continued to simmer just below the surface of pretend civil accord, but could always be exploited for political advantage. Now they're in the open, with presidential approval, nobody's going to talk them back down.

The USA is broken. Has been for a long time, but it looked, briefly, as if it might heal. Not anymore. A people addicted to obsolescence decided last fall that it's easier to throw their country away than try to repair it. Unfortunately, they've already maxed out their credit and can't buy a new one.

Interesting times.
If you want to blame the alt-righters exploiting the false pretense and meaning of this statue, I think it's only fair to do the same to these so-called 'progressive' activists who cry about race relations, while also completely misunderstanding the intention and history behind why the statue stands. I'm sure most of these people couldn't even point to Africa on a map, but they have the gall to get upset based on the propaganda of their peers.

I don't care about what happens to the statue, I'm not particularly patriotic or nostalgic of US history - it's just going to be put in a museum anyway - I do care if it's done to appease the ignorant, based on that ignorance.
Neither side has a brain that's worth the oxygen it uses.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:24 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:21 pm
Neither side has a brain that's worth the oxygen it uses.
I'm not trying to say one side does.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:47 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:24 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:21 pm
Neither side has a brain that's worth the oxygen it uses.
I'm not trying to say one side does.
I know that. I was agreeing with your post, except that I think they should be left where they are. Ageing local monuments create a sense of community and connectedness simply as familiar objects if nothing else, even when their original purpose is long-forgotten to most people. Self-proclaimed 'Progressives' really are among the biggest wankers and hypocrites I can think of.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Walker
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Walker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:58 am

The statue bs is an example of ostensible purpose implanted into those prone to mob manipulation, since folks need problems bad enough to create them, and are lazy enough to accept them.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:21 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:... Those statues have long since become simply historical artifacts of a bygone era. ... People today could be no more 'offended' or 'upset' by those statues than I could be by a statue of Queen Victoria.
Hmm... I tend to fall on your side in this discussion but in America the racism of the South is still pretty strong and tied strongly to the dreams of a Confederate South rising again and those statues are still used as exemplars of that.

You think the Allies were wrong to remove the icons of Nazism after WWII?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:28 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:21 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:... Those statues have long since become simply historical artifacts of a bygone era. ... People today could be no more 'offended' or 'upset' by those statues than I could be by a statue of Queen Victoria.
Hmm... I tend to fall on your side in this discussion but in America the racism of the South is still pretty strong and tied strongly to the dreams of a Confederate South rising again and those statues are still used as exemplars of that.

You think the Allies were wrong to remove the icons of Nazism after WWII?
Does it make any difference? Were the 'allies' sanctimonious hypocrites?' Do you still have statues of Churchill littered around the place? Were those confederates Nazis? Did Washington have slaves? Did the Romans have slaves? Did the British Empire do horrid things? Are there statues of British Monarchs scattered around the commonwealth? Does anyone care, or are they something to get 'offended on behalf of '____ ?
So many questions...
The 'meaning' of icons changes over time. The city I live in has a rather ugly statue of Queen Victoria. It has become something of a kitch icon, regarded with amused affection by the locals. No doubt some self-righteous and humourless PC twat will come along one day and be all 'offended on behalf of' some hypothetical 'group' or other and order its removal.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:35 pm

"in America the racism of the South is still pretty strong and tied strongly to the dreams of a Confederate South rising again and those statues are still used as exemplars of that."

Don't know where you're gettin' your info but the above is waaay off the mark.

Race relations in the South and the Middle are considerably better than what you'll find up north or to the east and west, and the majority down here got no interest in seein' the Confederacy rise again.

Like I say: most local folks (black and white) don't give a flip about those statues and monuments.

Most of the brouhaha is bein' stirred up by outsiders (from the north, east, and west) lookin' to promote their politics.

thedoc
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Re:

Post by thedoc » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:47 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:35 pm
Most of the brouhaha is bein' stirred up by outsiders (from the north, east, and west) lookin' to promote their politics.
Outsiders who don't have a dog in the fight but have nothing else to do, so they stick their noses in where it doesn't belong.

Walker
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Walker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:48 pm

That's right. The United States is one of the least racist countries on the planet. Most likely it's the very least.

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Arising_uk
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Re:

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:51 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:35 pm
"in America the racism of the South is still pretty strong and tied strongly to the dreams of a Confederate South rising again and those statues are still used as exemplars of that."

Don't know where you're gettin' your info but the above is waaay off the mark.

Race relations in the South and the Middle are considerably better than what you'll find up north or to the east and west, and the majority down here got no interest in seein' the Confederacy rise again.

Like I say: most local folks (black and white) don't give a flip about those statues and monuments.

Most of the brouhaha is bein' stirred up by outsiders (from the north, east, and west) lookin' to promote their politics.
Thanks for correcting me as it was just info from a conversation with another American. Like I said, personally I think it is a waste of time when much more concrete action could be taken with respect to race-relations in your country.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:53 pm

Walker wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:48 pm
That's right. The United States is one of the least racist countries on the planet. Most likely it's the very least.
:lol: Not the experience of a British mixed-race couple I know who had to live and travel there for a while. But maybe things have changed in the last decade or so.

Walker
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Walker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:56 pm

Obama twisted many issues of his day into a race theme, which the fawning press facilitated. Before that, not much of an issue.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:57 pm

Walker wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:56 pm
Obama twisted many issues of his day into a race theme, which the fawning press facilitated. Before that, not much of an issue.
*Yawn*

Walker
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Walker » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:58 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:53 pm
Walker wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:48 pm
That's right. The United States is one of the least racist countries on the planet. Most likely it's the very least.
:lol: Not the experience of a British mixed-race couple I know who had to live and travel there for a while. But maybe things have changed in the last decade or so.
Good grief.

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