Statue removal

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Philosophy Explorer
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Statue removal

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:24 am

Why do statues stir emotions much more than other types of art (e.g. paintings)?

Recent events about removal of Confederate statues seem to support this if you follow the news.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 am

More PC disingenuous BS. I have to agree with Trump here. It's history ffs. What are they going to do next? Have any mention of that era removed from school history books? (if there is any such thing these days. Perhaps teachers just 'Wiki' everything now). What about George Washington? Isn't he on your dollar notes? I'm sure he kept slaves.
Humans have done all kinds of horrible things in every era. Why don't they just pull down all the cathedrals and destroy all religious art works because of the horrors that catholicism has inflicted on countless millions?

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Re: Statue removal

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:18 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 am
More PC disingenuous BS. I have to agree with Trump here. It's history ffs. What are they going to do next? Have any mention of that era removed from school history books? (if there is any such thing these days. Perhaps teachers just 'Wiki' everything now). What about George Washington? Isn't he on your dollar notes? I'm sure he kept slaves.
Humans have done all kinds of horrible things in every era. Why don't they just pull down all the cathedrals and destroy all religious art works because of the horrors that catholicism has inflicted on countless millions?
Why treat statues differently from paintings?

PhilX 🇺🇸

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:36 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:18 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 am
More PC disingenuous BS. I have to agree with Trump here. It's history ffs. What are they going to do next? Have any mention of that era removed from school history books? (if there is any such thing these days. Perhaps teachers just 'Wiki' everything now). What about George Washington? Isn't he on your dollar notes? I'm sure he kept slaves.
Humans have done all kinds of horrible things in every era. Why don't they just pull down all the cathedrals and destroy all religious art works because of the horrors that catholicism has inflicted on countless millions?
Why treat statues differently from paintings?

PhilX 🇺🇸
You tell me. I didn't say they should be, except that statues are rather more public. People are very precious now. Those statues have long since become simply historical artifacts of a bygone era. I don't see anything wrong with that. Their value now is historical and as an interesting part of the cityscape. They look nice in parks :) I would call their removal vandalism. It's the old 'offended' crocodile tears phoniness again. People today could be no more 'offended' or 'upset' by those statues than I could be by a statue of Queen Victoria.

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Lacewing
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Lacewing » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:37 am

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 am
More PC disingenuous BS. I have to agree with Trump here. It's history ffs. What are they going to do next? Have any mention of that era removed from school history books? (if there is any such thing these days. Perhaps teachers just 'Wiki' everything now). What about George Washington? Isn't he on your dollar notes? I'm sure he kept slaves.
Humans have done all kinds of horrible things in every era. Why don't they just pull down all the cathedrals and destroy all religious art works because of the horrors that catholicism has inflicted on countless millions?
I can see the points you are making VT... but they're focused only on some of the elements of the situation. If my family had been abused as slaves, and told stories of it throughout the generations, I might not appreciate seeing a fucking statue in my town of an asshole who perpetuated that, you know? :D Just because some people made a statue of him (for their own purposes), doesn't mean he was a worthy or honorable person. We don't have to rewrite history... but we also don't have to maintain symbols of ignorance and cruelty from the past. Knowing what we know now, and having different values, we can respect those who are living now. I'm just offering another perspective on why it matters to some people to remove those symbols from our living spaces.

Why not have statues of children and animals and nature and acts of kindness? Shouldn't our symbols represent our evolution more than our stunted past?

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:55 am

Lacewing wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:37 am
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 am
More PC disingenuous BS. I have to agree with Trump here. It's history ffs. What are they going to do next? Have any mention of that era removed from school history books? (if there is any such thing these days. Perhaps teachers just 'Wiki' everything now). What about George Washington? Isn't he on your dollar notes? I'm sure he kept slaves.
Humans have done all kinds of horrible things in every era. Why don't they just pull down all the cathedrals and destroy all religious art works because of the horrors that catholicism has inflicted on countless millions?
I can see the points you are making VT... but they're focused only on some of the elements of the situation. If my family had been abused as slaves, and told stories of it throughout the generations, I might not appreciate seeing a fucking statue in my town of an asshole who perpetuated that, you know? :D Just because some people made a statue of him (for their own purposes), doesn't mean he was a worthy or honorable person. We don't have to rewrite history... but we also don't have to maintain symbols of ignorance and cruelty from the past. Knowing what we know now, and having different values, we can respect those who are living now. I'm just offering another perspective on why it matters to some people to remove those symbols from our living spaces.

Why not have statues of children and animals and nature and acts of kindness? Shouldn't our symbols represent our evolution more than our stunted past?
There's not really any response to that.

Dubious
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Dubious » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:40 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:24 am
Why do statues stir emotions much more than other types of art (e.g. paintings)?

Recent events about removal of Confederate statues seem to support this if you follow the news.

PhilX 🇺🇸
As mentioned by VT they are continually in public view. More people see statues whether they want to see them or not than paintings which obviously you can only view in enclosed places like museums.

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Greta
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Re: Statue removal

Post by Greta » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:14 pm

Given the divisive history of it all, I think the statues are better off in museums than public places. As part of history they should ideally be preserved rather than destroyed. The good, bad and the ugly is all history.

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Post by henry quirk » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:26 pm

The simplest, most direct, most honest solution to them debbil statues is let the folks of relevant communities decide what to do with 'em.

Not the government (president, congress, governors, state legislatures, mayors, city councils [or outside agitators]) but the citizens of the relevant communitites...let them vote.

If the folks of a community vote to keep 'em, then boo-hoo for those want them debbil statues gone.

If the folks of a community vote to rip 'em diwn, then boo-hoo for those who wanna keep 'em.

All this friggin' debate among folks who don't live in New Orleans or Charlotte or Richmond is an exercise in buttinskys not mindin' the own damned business.

Me: public statues are just places for birds to take a crap, so I don't give a flip what folks do with 'em: keep 'em, dump 'em, graffiti 'em up, make sweet love to 'em...just stop kvetchin' about it.

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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:13 pm

That's just bullshit because most people are like you and don't really give much of a crap about anything except whatever (they think) directly affects them. And it's American history, which is human history--which doesn't just belong to voters in some hickville town. It's even affected me in a certain way. Everything that happens is connected on some level. Most people probably rarely, if ever, visit a library, or go to a ballet or any of those amazing museums you have over there. Or give a shit about space exploration, thinking it's 'not relevant' to them. They probably whine about the cost and whether or not their money is being stolen to help pay for those things. What if Italians had decided to bulldoze the Colosseum because nasty things happened in it? And yes, I do realise that you wouldn't 'give a flip' about that either, but millions would. Those statue vandals are ignorant, short-sighted morons--then again you do seem to have more than your fair share of those over there. PC at its worst. Forcing their warped and intellectually-challenged political views on the rest of society. They will be burning Mark Twain books next. Anyone who claims to be 'offended' by a 100 year old statue is full of crap. And no one ever died from being 'offended' anyway. If they think that destroying statues is going to stop American cops from shooting black people, or white supremacist pea-brains from being just that, then they are even stupider than they appear to be.
You don't see Auschwitz being bulldozed because it's not 'nice' or 'about nature' and doing feelgood things.
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:41 pm

Most folks don't give a shit, you're right, but if pressed I suspect most of those indfferent folks will say 'leave the statues alone' and would vote that way if given a chance, which -- of course -- is why you won't see the question put to voters directly.

In New Orleans, for example, there was a significant pushback against Landrieu's push to remove statues. Most of these folks, New Orleans and Orleans Parish residents, probably hadn't thought of those statues in years, probably didn't care too much one way or the other about them. But then along comes a very vocal and very small group of folks who made a big stink about the statues. Sensibly, a responsive mayor and city council would lay the question on the table and let voters decide. Instead an imperial mayor and city council catered to Black Lives Matter and Antifa (Marxists), the same folks who stirred up the pot in Charlotte(sville).

As for Italy: same principle holds...they, the people, ought to get the final say on what appears in their public spaces.

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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:56 pm

Tried to listen to 'Mitch's' speech but couldn't make it through his seemingly endless list ('fuck, if I miss anyone out they will be offended and ah'll lose their vote). I think I have a fair idea of what was coming though.

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Re: Statue removal

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:19 pm

It stirs such emotion because they're usually indoctrinated into thinking the statue stands for something it doesn't. While people in the US are exceptionally bad at history, people in general are good at learning about specific bits of history that can be used to reinforce their worldview about something. If racism and social justice wasn't such a hot topic in college campuses, very few young people would be engaged because they just wouldn't know about it.

People are more right to compare Robert E. Lee to people like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington than they might think. I think Lee specifically gets an more undo amount of hate than can be accounted for. While of course he's far from any progressive activist today, he didn't actually want the south to succeed, and was openly against it. He personally thought that slavery was evil, although the reasons as to why are admittedly pretty twisted, he was considered a fairly forward thinking guy for the time, arguable even more so than Washington or Jefferson.

Something that does need to be noted is that the Rober E Lee statue was not just going to get taken down and demolished though, but be put in a museum with proper context. Just to be clear I don't have any strong feelings siding with those protesting for or against it.

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Re: Statue removal

Post by Skip » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:58 pm

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:24 am
Why do statues stir emotions much more than other types of art (e.g. paintings)?

Recent events about removal of Confederate statues seem to support this if you follow the news.

PhilX 🇺🇸
It's not about statues or sculpture, or art in general, is it? These statues are not in an art gallery or museum, are they?
It's about monuments to the specific heroes or specific events, displayed on the premises or grounds of public buildings - of institutions that are supposed to serve all of the citizens, and that are maintained with the taxes of all the citizens.

Of course it's history, and that is why it excites emotion: that was its function in the first place. When Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte or Saddam Hussein had a statue erected to his own glory, displayed in a prominent position, the idea was to inspire pride in his followers and fear in his enemies. When he lost his power, he lost his right to self-glorification.

I think the Confederacy did, too. Glorifying leaders who chose the losing side is a gesture of defiance on the part of the losers. The winners have been more than patient - they have been downright indulgent - in allowing this to continue as long as it has.

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Re: Statue removal

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:44 pm

From what I can tell they didn't have them erected themselves, and it has taken a rather long time to decide those people aren't virtuous enough to warrant a statue. As Henry pointed out, most people wouldn't even know who they were, and they were hardly totalitarian dictators. They were simply people of their time--not monsters. I'm also pretty sure there are still artefacts depicting Julius Caesar and Napoleon around.
What if the PC decide to target Washington and Lincoln? I'm sure Lincoln wasn't the 'saint' he's portrayed as (no one ever is). You could always blow up Mount Rushmore. What about Truman, the mass murderer? Lindbergh? Henry Ford? I'm sure there must be memorials to them strewn about the place. Why just pick on little-known statues in lesser-known spots?

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