Great Works of Art

What is art? What is beauty?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Conde Lucanor
Posts: 672
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:59 am

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Conde Lucanor » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:29 am

La Alhambra de Granada (Spain)

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Averroes
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Averroes » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:37 am

Conde Lucanor wrote:Is the Blue Mosque the same as the Hagia Sophia? What a beautiful place.
Hagia Sophia is now a museum. According to Google Map, it is within walking distance of the Blue Mosque; less than 500 meters. You can check the following YouTube to learn more about Hagia Sophia and other splendid historic monuments of Turkey, the visuals are amazing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t-VoZaU3xc

A friend of mine from Turkey is named Ebru, after the ancient Turkish art of paper marbling. Her name and what it meant was part of why I fell in love with her.
:) That is very interesting my friend. I can somehow relate to your love story. I came to Islam through the Muslims whom I came to appreciate much after I got to know them personally. From this appreciation, I got to study the religion and I fell in love with the religion even more. Some years later I would then embrace Islam from being previously from a predominantly Christian background, It has been about 12-13 years since I embraced Islam. Many people have came to Islam as I did. For example, Lindsay Lohan and Liam Neeson have fallen in love with Islam through their experience with Muslims and Islam in Turkey. Liam Neeson fell in love with Islam in Turkey, while making the movie Taken. As for Lindsay, you can hear her talk of her experience with Islam in Turkey here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dzf_XE3zH8

Many people come to Islam by feeling affection for the Muslims at first. A great example is found in the second most prolific preacher today in Islam, who is now also an Islamic scholar. His name is Sheik Yusuf Estes from the USA, who embraced Islam from Christianity in 1991.

If I may ask: is Ebru Muslim? And if so, did your affection for her got you interested in Islam as well?

Anyway, have you had an opportunity to listen to the recitation of the Holy Quran? If not, please allow me to provide you some links to my favorite reciters. In any case this would fall within the subject matter of this thread as: the art of Quranic recitation which is called Tajweed in Islam. I will give you three short recitations at first and the last one is a longer recitation in case you want to further the experience. The Holy Quran should be listened to or read in a clean place, i.e. not in the bathroom.

Chapter 1 of the Holy Quran by Sheik Al-Afasy (1 min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

Chapter 95 by reciter Abdussamad (1 min 51): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK88FsJ3xQM
Chapter 103 by reciter Abdussamad (50 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5iElBopeyA

Chapter 36, by Sheik Al-Afasy (18 min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-W_NfyAP3Q

If you would want some more, whether short ones or longer ones or specifying the reciter, please feel free to ask, you are most welcomed.

Averroes
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Averroes » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:45 am

Conde Lucanor wrote:La Alhambra de Granada (Spain)
Thank you so much for these wonderful pictures of Alhambra. The story behind it and more generally Muslim Spain, is very interesting.

Bettany Hughes, a respected British historian, goes through a detailed and illustrated analysis of this period of history of Al-Andalus in the following YouTube video. The visuals of the video are just superb, and it is clear that the historian and presenter masters her subject and in my humble opinion the documentary itself is a work of art; the story and architecture of Alhambra is dissected and analysed in detail as well. I hope you enjoy every second of it as I have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky9H4lmwC60

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 11850
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:08 pm

Image

This is stunning in real life.

User avatar
Arising_uk
Posts: 11850
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:31 am

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:15 pm

I really like my friend's piece as well.

Image

User avatar
Conde Lucanor
Posts: 672
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:59 am

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Conde Lucanor » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:42 am

Averroes wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:37 am

If I may ask: is Ebru Muslim? And if so, did your affection for her got you interested in Islam as well?
Actually, as she is Turkish, and as you may well know, from the times of Ataturk,Turkey has been a very secular modern society. I believe we got close because of that cosmopolitan element: being of different cultures, from the old and the new world, but at the same time finding many things in common in our modern, liberal view of society. She was not muslim (actually more into Buddhism), but for the love she has for that country, she also esteemed all of its traditions.
Averroes wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:37 am
I will give you three short recitations at first and the last one is a longer recitation in case you want to further the experience. The Holy Quran should be listened to or read in a clean place, i.e. not in the bathroom.

Chapter 1 of the Holy Quran by Sheik Al-Afasy (1 min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

Chapter 95 by reciter Abdussamad (1 min 51): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK88FsJ3xQM
Chapter 103 by reciter Abdussamad (50 seconds): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5iElBopeyA

Chapter 36, by Sheik Al-Afasy (18 min): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-W_NfyAP3Q
I find it hard not to relate these recitations, even if just in vague form, to the vocal sounds of Flamenco, particulary the Cante Jondo. No wonder, since Flamenco is from Andalucia (Al-Andalus).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odZQ1T7-7-I

Averroes
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:48 pm

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Averroes » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:22 pm

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:42 am
and as you may well know, from the times of Ataturk,Turkey has been a very secular modern society.
I think things have been changing for the better for Turkey since 1994 when the actual President Recep Tayyip Erdogan first took a position of political power in Turkey. At that time, the west and the insignificant minority secularist of Turkey were afraid of him because he was a pious Muslim and advocated a return of Islamic rule for Turkey. Secularism has had disastrous effects for Turkey; a failing economy, filthy environment, public infrastructures falling into ruin, poverty, failing healthcare system, discrimination and oppression of Muslim women by the the secularist, oppression of the Muslims in general and whatnot. The latter situation is quite surprising given that the population of Turkey is 97% Muslim. However, when the majority got to chose for a Muslim to rule their country, they chose him, because Muslims want to be ruled by Islamic principles. You will agree that, in the west, no valid criticism can be raised here as it is the free choice of the people of Turkey, and besides the principles of democracy have been upheld! You can watch the following YouTube video to get some visuals of the situation before and after President Erdogan:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUWM2WLGvIY

With all due respect to you my friend, you seem to equate secularity with modernity, I might agree with you if by 'modern' you mean that which is actual only but not that which is better or beneficial. For me, when one has the choice of Islam, then secularity does not equate with progress. On the other side, Islam, the historians say, has been the intellectual engine which brought us into the 21st century. Take the example of Turkey again, secular Turkey and secular west were afraid that President Erdogan would Islamize Turkey; and when he took power, he did just that, i.e. charity to poor and destitute, cleanliness, hospitality to travelers and refugees (millions of Syrian refugees live on Turkish soil taken care by the Turkish Government), good relationship with neighbors (Turkey does not mess up with private and internal affairs of other countries as the west does), protection of women, education and much more. If you watched the documentary I provided in my previous post, you will not fail to remark that the historians say that when the Muslims govern a territory, they make it prosper. As Nietzsche once put it in one of his writings: if it were not for the Muslims, the West would still be "grovelling in the dust". And I agree with him on this.
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:42 am
I find it hard not to relate these recitations, even if just in vague form, to the vocal sounds of Flamenco, particulary the Cante Jondo. No wonder, since Flamenco is from Andalucia (Al-Andalus).
Thank you very much for this. Certainly I would have missed that because I would not have allowed myself to make that relation!!

The Quranic recitation style that I think you mean is close to Cante Jonde is known as the Mujawwad style in Islam. With respect to the links I gave previously, it corresponds to the reciter Abdussamad. There are other Quranic recitation styles as well. However, the Mujawwad style is quite popular in whole Islamic world, including Muslims in the North African regions, i.e. those close to Spain. Reciter Abdussamad was himself born in Egypt.

Now, since I did not know much about Flamenco except popular/common knowledge, I made some research on it and here is what I found.

From Wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote:Cante jondo has clear traces of Arabic and Spanish folk melodies, as well as vestiges of Byzantine, Christian and Jewish religious music.
And about the origin of the word 'flamenco', Wikipedia says:
Wikipedia wrote: Another theory, proposed by Andalusian historian and nationalist Blas Infante in his 1933 book Orígenes de lo Flamenco y Secreto del Cante Jondo suggested that the word flamenco comes from the Hispano-Arabic term fellah mengu, meaning "expelled peasant"; Infante argued that this term referred to the Andalusians of the Islamic faith, the Moriscos, who in order to avoid religious persecution, joined with the Roma newcomers.
Wikipedia on the "Moriscos" (the emphasis in the quotation are mine!):
Wikipedia wrote:
Moriscos were former Muslims who converted or were coerced into converting to Christianity, after Spain finally outlawed the open practice of Islam by its sizeable Muslim population (termed Mudejar) in the early 16th century.

The Moriscos were subject to systematic expulsions from Spain's various kingdoms between 1609 and 1614, the most severe of which occurred in the eastern Kingdom of Valencia. (…)The large majority of those permanently expelled settled on the western fringe of the Ottoman Empire and the Kingdom of Morocco. The last mass prosecution against Moriscos for crypto-Islamic practices occurred in Granada in 1727, with most of those convicted receiving relatively light sentences. From then on, the practice of Islam by Spain's indigenous population was considered to have been effectively extinguished in Spain.
(…)
Because conversions to Christianity were decreed by law rather than by their own will, most Moriscos still genuinely believed in Islam. Because of the danger associated with practicing Islam, however, the religion was largely practiced clandestinely. A legal opinion, called "the Oran fatwa" by modern scholars, circulated in Spain and provided religious justification for outwardly conforming to Christianity while maintaining an internal conviction of faith in Islam, when necessary for survival. The fatwa affirmed the regular obligations of a Muslim, including the ritual prayer (salat) and the ritual alms (zakat), although the obligation might be fulfilled in a relaxed manner (e.g., the fatwa mentioned making the ritual prayer "even though by making some slight movement" and the ritual alms by "showing generosity to a beggar"). The fatwa also allowed Muslims to perform acts normally forbidden in Islamic law, such as consuming pork and wine, calling Jesus the son of God, and blaspheming against the prophet Muhammad, as long as they maintained conviction against such acts.
After having consdered all these elements, I have concluded that the Cante Jondo could have been a way for the remaining Moriscos to conceal their practice of and attachment to Islam in spite of all the persecution that they endured for centuries at the hands of the barbaric and backward Christian rulers of that time. If one considers that the oldest record of Flamenco dates back to 1774, and the last mass prosecution of Moriscos for secret Islamic practices dates back to 1727, then I see it as a real possibility. I think, as a way to secretly remember the Holy Quran recitation, they incorporated the style in folk songs and thus not incur persecution by the barbaric savages. And all this time, it has laid hidden before our very eyes and no one has noticed that until my friend Conde Lucanor. I am convinced that if the barbaric Christians rulers of the time had known this, they would have banned Flamenco and Cante Jondo altogether, leaving no trace of Islam at all in Spain. But Flamenco is quite popular in Spain nowadays! Isn't it? :)

If I may ask you, how did you feel when you listened to the recitation of the Holy Quran?

davidm
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by davidm » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:14 pm

I'm rapt before Islamic art and architecture. It is perhaps the most beautiful depictions and art in the world. I also did not know about that Picasso quote on Islamic calligraphy; assuming it's true, it's quite the compliment from the greatest master of the visual arts.

Islamic culture in general, historically, has made great contributions.

However.

Averroes wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:22 pm
Take the example of Turkey again, secular Turkey and secular west were afraid that President Erdogan would Islamize Turkey; and when he took power, he did just that, i.e. charity to poor and destitute, cleanliness, hospitality to travelers and refugees (millions of Syrian refugees live on Turkish soil taken care by the Turkish Government), good relationship with neighbors (Turkey does not mess up with private and internal affairs of other countries as the west does), protection of women, education and much more.
I have not read your full post, but you must be kidding us with this idiotic bullshit. Protection of women? Here's what your hero Erdogan had to say about women: Women, the dictator says, must have at least three children; childless women are "incomplete" and "deficient." He said it was "against nature" to treat men and women equally.

And education? He has banned the teaching of evolution in elementary schools.

The great Islamic culture of around a thousand years ago would have completely abjured Erdogan and modern Islamic fundamentalism.

This is a thread about art. I suggest you go take your crap elsewhere.

User avatar
Conde Lucanor
Posts: 672
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:59 am

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Conde Lucanor » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:18 am

Averroes wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:22 pm
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:42 am
and as you may well know, from the times of Ataturk,Turkey has been a very secular modern society.
I think things have been changing for the better for Turkey since 1994 when the actual President Recep Tayyip Erdogan first took a position of political power in Turkey. At that time, the west and the insignificant minority secularist of Turkey were afraid of him because he was a pious Muslim and advocated a return of Islamic rule for Turkey. Secularism has had disastrous effects for Turkey; a failing economy, filthy environment, public infrastructures falling into ruin, poverty, failing healthcare system, discrimination and oppression of Muslim women by the the secularist, oppression of the Muslims in general and whatnot. The latter situation is quite surprising given that the population of Turkey is 97% Muslim. However, when the majority got to chose for a Muslim to rule their country, they chose him, because Muslims want to be ruled by Islamic principles. You will agree that, in the west, no valid criticism can be raised here as it is the free choice of the people of Turkey, and besides the principles of democracy have been upheld! You can watch the following YouTube video to get some visuals of the situation before and after President Erdogan:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUWM2WLGvIY

With all due respect to you my friend, you seem to equate secularity with modernity, I might agree with you if by 'modern' you mean that which is actual only but not that which is better or beneficial. For me, when one has the choice of Islam, then secularity does not equate with progress. On the other side, Islam, the historians say, has been the intellectual engine which brought us into the 21st century. Take the example of Turkey again, secular Turkey and secular west were afraid that President Erdogan would Islamize Turkey; and when he took power, he did just that, i.e. charity to poor and destitute, cleanliness, hospitality to travelers and refugees (millions of Syrian refugees live on Turkish soil taken care by the Turkish Government), good relationship with neighbors (Turkey does not mess up with private and internal affairs of other countries as the west does), protection of women, education and much more. If you watched the documentary I provided in my previous post, you will not fail to remark that the historians say that when the Muslims govern a territory, they make it prosper. As Nietzsche once put it in one of his writings: if it were not for the Muslims, the West would still be "grovelling in the dust". And I agree with him on this.
I disagree with most of your political views, but since this is not the purpose of this thread, I'd rather not comment. I just will say that it is generally acknowledged that Islamic culture contributed to the cultural progress of Europeans in the Middle Ages and played an important role in passing Greek culture to them. That was then, this is now.
Averroes wrote:
Conde Lucanor wrote:
Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:42 am
I find it hard not to relate these recitations, even if just in vague form, to the vocal sounds of Flamenco, particulary the Cante Jondo. No wonder, since Flamenco is from Andalucia (Al-Andalus).
Thank you very much for this. Certainly I would have missed that because I would not have allowed myself to make that relation!!

The Quranic recitation style that I think you mean is close to Cante Jonde is known as the Mujawwad style in Islam. With respect to the links I gave previously, it corresponds to the reciter Abdussamad. There are other Quranic recitation styles as well. However, the Mujawwad style is quite popular in whole Islamic world, including Muslims in the North African regions, i.e. those close to Spain. Reciter Abdussamad was himself born in Egypt.

Now, since I did not know much about Flamenco except popular/common knowledge, I made some research on it and here is what I found...

After having consdered all these elements, I have concluded that the Cante Jondo could have been a way for the remaining Moriscos to conceal their practice of and attachment to Islam in spite of all the persecution that they endured for centuries at the hands of the barbaric and backward Christian rulers of that time. If one considers that the oldest record of Flamenco dates back to 1774, and the last mass prosecution of Moriscos for secret Islamic practices dates back to 1727, then I see it as a real possibility. I think, as a way to secretly remember the Holy Quran recitation, they incorporated the style in folk songs and thus not incur persecution by the barbaric savages. And all this time, it has laid hidden before our very eyes and no one has noticed that until my friend Conde Lucanor. I am convinced that if the barbaric Christians rulers of the time had known this, they would have banned Flamenco and Cante Jondo altogether, leaving no trace of Islam at all in Spain. But Flamenco is quite popular in Spain nowadays! Isn't it? :)
I do think Moorish influence in Spain is a fact and that there's a good possibility this extended to musical forms, although as you mention, there may be other influences as well.
Averroes wrote: If I may ask you, how did you feel when you listened to the recitation of the Holy Quran?
I'm not religious, so my interest is purely formal. As I said, it immediately reminded me of the sound and spirit of Cante Jondo. Having Spanish descent, I always loved this music. Although not exactly a singer of Cante Jondo, but of some version of it called Coplas, Antonio Molina will remain as the best ever. He was famous for his long falsettos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S610yMflg

davidm
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by davidm » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:17 am

Interiors of Iran's mosques

Unbelievably beautiful and sublime.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8073
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:59 am

Conde Lucanor wrote:
Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:50 am
The first outdoor sculpture by Picasso in the USA (Daley Plaza, Chicago).

Image

Image
Wow. A Picasso sculpture. Lucky people of Chicago.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8073
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:01 am

davidm wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:17 am
Interiors of Iran's mosques

Unbelievably beautiful and sublime.
I literally gasped when I clicked on your link. That doesn't happen often :) I wonder how long before it's all gone, blown up like Iraq's treasures.

davidm
Posts: 1155
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by davidm » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:04 pm

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:01 am
davidm wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:17 am
Interiors of Iran's mosques

Unbelievably beautiful and sublime.
I literally gasped when I clicked on your link. That doesn't happen often :) I wonder how long before it's all gone, blown up like Iraq's treasures.
Eventually it'll be gone like everything else, even the universe, but it is so beautiful that it almost makes me think Allah is real. (Almost, not quite)

How I do hate American knuckle draggers and mouth breathers who insult all Muslims for the terroristic acts of a vanishingly small minority who claim (wrongly) to speak in the name of Islam.

User avatar
vegetariantaxidermy
Posts: 8073
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
Location: Narniabiznus

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by vegetariantaxidermy » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:44 pm

davidm wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:04 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:01 am
davidm wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:17 am
Interiors of Iran's mosques

Unbelievably beautiful and sublime.
I literally gasped when I clicked on your link. That doesn't happen often :) I wonder how long before it's all gone, blown up like Iraq's treasures.
Eventually it'll be gone like everything else, even the universe, but it is so beautiful that it almost makes me think Allah is real. (Almost, not quite)

How I do hate American knuckle draggers and mouth breathers who insult all Muslims for the terroristic acts of a vanishingly small minority who claim (wrongly) to speak in the name of Islam.
When you think of what the US has done to them and their countries, there have been astonishingly few attacks there. Of course, 'Isis and islam' is just a red herring anyway. The suicide bombers are only naive suckers dancing on the strings of war profiteers and big business interests. Iraqis and Syrians are (were) sophisticated and cultured people. No doubt Iran will be next. It's taken a bit longer than expected to get to it but there have been enough jolly japes in the other 'big two of the three' to keep it relatively 'safe' for a while. And there's always N Korea to have a bit of fun with, the latest 'public enemy number one' on the block. I mean, they are just a joke and don't count as human anyway--not like 'civilised and morally sound' Americans.

Walker
Posts: 6693
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Great Works of Art

Post by Walker » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:14 pm

davidm wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:04 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:01 am
davidm wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:17 am
Interiors of Iran's mosques

Unbelievably beautiful and sublime.
I literally gasped when I clicked on your link. That doesn't happen often :) I wonder how long before it's all gone, blown up like Iraq's treasures.
Eventually it'll be gone like everything else, even the universe, but it is so beautiful that it almost makes me think Allah is real. (Almost, not quite)

How I do hate American knuckle draggers and mouth breathers who insult all Muslims for the terroristic acts of a vanishingly small minority who claim (wrongly) to speak in the name of Islam.
That is the crux of it: whether or not actions reflect a religion of peaceful coexistence, or a religion of conquest, interpreted on the basis of the tenets of the religion and the teachings through word and purported actions of the individual who inspires a religion, rather than based upon the wishes for what would make a wonderful and beautiful world, whatever that may be.

Those big Buddhas that the Christian Taliban blew up in an action with that sole intent, they were really something, weren't they. Oh wait. The Taliban is not Christian, is it. I guess all things pass, all things change, and such actions are not representative of conquest.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest