Alt-Right Art

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:09 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 am
So for the second time... pretty much every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity, so what's wrong with ethnonationalism...?
And I told you you're equivocating two different things. But sure, just ignore your opponents response to that and state the exact same question over again in hopes that no one will notice. Conversely, I'm going to state exactly what I just said and tell you to go back and read or respond to my point about immigration enforcement vs the ethno-nationalism that Spencer adheres to, specifically, which more so involves aspects of racial eugenics.
No. Stop being verbally abusive towards me.
''verbal abuse". That sounds pretty snowflake-y to me.
Londoner wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:49 am
I would say that when it comes to words the only way we can define their meaning is the way they are used. If that is fuzzy, or inconsistent, then there is no point in wishing otherwise. (And people who are interested in philosophy do tend to wish otherwise!)
Words should be fuzzy in their meaning? Even when that's the case due to malicious confusion and manipulation? The problem is that we're not even talking about a word that's hard to understand because its meaning is too complex, it's hard to understand because most people using the word are painfully dumb.

What these journalists are trying to do is basically the definition of 'equivocation', and it's not so much about the grammatical error as it is an issue in journalistic integrity. I agree that no one has a monopoly on what a word means, but imagine if I suddenly redefined 'Neo-nazi' to mean and only mean 'Londoner', as though, the definition of the word now means specifically you whenever I use it - even though what I've done isn't necessarily incorrect, because my assigned meaning to the word matches the description I've given it - I think you'd have a thing or two to say about it, and you absolutely should. I'd obviously be trying to make a false impression about you.

But sometimes, the person these journalists describe as 'at-right', don't even match their own admitted description of what 'alt-right' means, and that's a whole other layer.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:03 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:09 pm
Seleucus wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 am
So for the second time... pretty much every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity, so what's wrong with ethnonationalism...?
And I told you you're equivocating two different things. But sure, just ignore your opponents response to that and state the exact same question over again in hopes that no one will notice. Conversely, I'm going to state exactly what I just said and tell you to go back and read or respond to my point about immigration enforcement vs the ethno-nationalism that Spencer adheres to, specifically, which more so involves aspects of racial eugenics.
For the third time now... What is supposed to be wrong with ethnonationalism? The majority of the countries in the world are ethnonationalist entities. It's the norm. It's desirable. There's nothing wrong with it.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:25 am

Seleucus, you are so dissociated from how basic conversation works. When someone objects to the sensical relevancy of your question, your knee-jerk reaction should not be to ask the exact same question again, and then again.

Your question gets it wrong from the get-go, unless we define ethno-nationalism to mean any sort of immigration enforcement which I don't see why you would. But even if we do, you're creating an equivocation between the sort of racial eugenics that people like the white nationalists believe, and any immigration by branding it all as ethno-nationalism, and the same type of 'ethno-nationalism' that Spencer believes, at that.

I don't have a problem with strong immigration laws - you should already know that from the other thread, you know, the one where you kept assuring me that you weren't just misunderstanding everything I was actually saying. I have a problem with immigration that specifically seeks out to 'preserve' a certain race, because I think that racial eugenics is incredibly dumb, whoever it comes from.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:22 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:25 am
Seleucus, you are so dissociated from how basic conversation works. When someone objects to the sensical relevancy of your question, your knee-jerk reaction should not be to ask the exact same question again, and then again.

Your question gets it wrong from the get-go, unless we define ethno-nationalism to mean any sort of immigration enforcement which I don't see why you would. But even if we do, you're creating an equivocation between the sort of racial eugenics that people like the white nationalists believe, and any immigration by branding it all as ethno-nationalism, and the same type of 'ethno-nationalism' that Spencer believes, at that.

I don't have a problem with strong immigration laws - you should already know that from the other thread, you know, the one where you kept assuring me that you weren't just misunderstanding everything I was actually saying. I have a problem with immigration that specifically seeks out to 'preserve' a certain race, because I think that racial eugenics is incredibly dumb, whoever it comes from.
Okay, so you're an ethnonationalist too. So how do you see yourself, or Samvel the Armenian, or Richard Spencer as differing? Quotes please, not vague aspersions.

Here's a fresh interview from the other day with Tara McCarthy if you need some grist, https://youtu.be/deaoQpkCde8

Here's a message from the alt-right for anyone trying to figure out what it means, you may need to click through to view it since YouTube has put it into a protected state, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYFjRH- ... 1511092614

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:31 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:22 pm
Okay, so you're an ethnonationalist
Okay, so you're a blithering idiot. So how do you see yourself, or Moe Howard, or Curly Howard, as differing?

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:34 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:31 pm
Seleucus wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:22 pm
Okay, so you're an ethnonationalist
Okay, so you're a blithering idiot. So how do you see yourself, or Moe Howard, or Curly Howard, as differing?
No! Do not use pejorative name-calling against me, I want to be treated with respect. Stop verbally abusing me.

I don't know where you live so I've reported you to both the US, UK and Australia online abuse reporting systems:

https://www.stopbullying.gov/cyberbully ... index.html

http://www.report-it.org.uk/bullying_and_harassment

https://www.acorn.gov.au/
_____________

In your earlier posts you we being critical of ethnonationalism. But sometimes ideologies lose connection with reality, so when it was pointed out that most of the countries in the world are ethnonationalist entities and more over that national self-determination is very often considered something desirable it seems like you backed off?

To Richard Spencer, it seemed to me like you were making vague criticisms but when asked for specific quotes and positions of his you wouldn't deliver.

If you haven't made up your mind about ethnonationalism, fine, say so. And if you can't be bothered spending hours reviewing Richard Spencer talks to be able to have a precise and informed opinion, fine. But don't start verbally abusing me, because from now on on this site I will report everyone everytime as a cyber bully who does that.

I'll tell you my view: I support ethnonationalism in the main. It's typically desirable that a people who share a language, a culture and a spiritual tradition would want to live among one another autonomously. There are certainly are multi-cultural societies, Babylon was one, it was Sumerian-Akkadian for about 3000 years, India is another example with Indo-European people forming the higher castes, Dravidians forming the lower castes, and assorted minorities forming the out-caste. Sometime ethnonationallism becomes excessive, the Nazis being the most obvious example, but on the other hand, imperialism, the most common anti-ethnonationalist model is of course also very apt to violence and oppression too.

Of Richard Spencer, I've watched half a dozen of his lectures and interviews in full, and I in general support him. It's possible there may be some line or point that could be brought to my attention with which I don't?
Last edited by Seleucus on Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:48 am

Seleucus wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:34 am
No! Do use pejorative name-calling against me
Well, only if you insist.
In your earlier posts you we being critical of ethnonationalism. But sometimes ideologies lose connection with reality, so when it was pointed out that most of the countries in the world are ethnonationalist entities and more over that national self-determination is very often considered something desirable it seems like you backed off?
No, I was saying that most other countries only dabble in 'ethno-nationalism' if you consider any sort of immigration enforcement as such. Even if you do, this isn't to say it's the exact same thing as the specific 'alt-right', white nationalist philosophy of Richard Spencer that I was referring to, because it's most certainly not.

You're trying to brand all of this under the same term, in order to show how one has to accept it in this case as well, even though the two things are in fact different. You're committing the fallacy of equivocation.
If you haven't made up your mind about ethnonationalism, fine
I have. If you had the reading comprehension of a normal person, you could read that I think it's fucking dumb. I am, however, very strongly against immigration.
And if you can't be bothered spending hours reviewing Richard Spencer talks to be able to have a precise and informed opinion, fine. But don't start verbally abusing me, because from now on on this site I will report everyone everytime as a cyber bully who does that.
For as much as you complain about the left and the byproducts of PC culture, you seem to be one of the biggest little snowflakes on this site... And yes, I'm aware that 'biggest little' is a bit of an oxymoron, but I'm rolling with it.

Anyway, this isn't the first time you've used this line of defense, and I think you need to stop. It's pretty obnoxious. Bragging about how much you know about something, doesn't actually go to show how much you know about the topic, or how much less the other person knows. I clearly came into this thread and seemed more hyper-actively aware about this alt-right stuff than most of the people here. I don't know why you're pinpointing me like I haven't done enough research about Spencer's 'alt-right' philosophy.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:14 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:48 am
Seleucus wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:34 am
No! Do use pejorative name-calling against me
Well, only if you insist.
Typo edited.
If you haven't made up your mind about ethnonationalism, fine
I have. If you had the reading comprehension of a normal person, you could read that I think it's fucking dumb. I am, however, very strongly against immigration.
Okay, so what's the practical difference between being against immigration and being ethnonationalist, they would seem to amount to the same thing in most countries? A few exceptions withstanding, maybe Singapore for instance.
For as much as you complain about the left and the byproducts of PC culture, you seem to be one of the biggest little snowflakes on this site... And yes, I'm aware that 'biggest little' is a bit of an oxymoron, but I'm rolling with it.
I don't believe it is unreasonable to expect to be treated with a level of respect. If the kind of verbal abusiveness that appears to be normal on this site happened in a workplace or in a family it would would totally unacceptable and be reported.
Bragging about how much you know about something, doesn't actually go to show how much you know about the topic, or how much less the other person knows.
I'm telling you the facts so you can make an intelligent judgment just as you would trust someone more to repair your vehicle if they had a great deal of experience with mechanics. That's an argument from authority fallacy. Which is fine, because... all arguments are fallacies...!
I don't know why you're pinpointing me like I haven't done enough research about Spencer's 'alt-right' philosophy.
Sorry if you feel like I'm singling you out. The objective standard is: what did you hear him say, or what did you see him do, use a link, that you find disagreeable about Spencer's philosophy? If you can't be bothered to spend hours watching his talks, then no problem, your priorities are elsewhere which is fine.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:31 am

Seleucus wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:14 am
Okay, so what's the practical difference between being against immigration and being ethnonationalist, they would seem to amount to the same thing in most countries? A few exceptions withstanding, maybe Singapore for instance.
I think that most people consider it different. The most obvious point is that mere immigration enforcement doesn't explicitly prioritize anyone's ethnicity, as a race or a culture. You could make the case that it implicitly does this, but intention is almost everything here. It's certainly not done with the intention of 'preserving' or socially engineering a certain ethnicity.

Really, though, there are about 3 different layers to this that I feel you're not grasping; Immigration is not ethno-nationalism, ethno-nationlism is not white nationalism, and white nationalism is not necessarily Spencers very specific type of white nationalism. At the latter, we jump to race as an ethnicity, and start dabbling in the territory of racial eugenics, which is something I don't even feel I need to give my explanation against. Do you think racial eugenics is a good idea on Spencer's part, or is there just a serious misunderstanding here?
I don't believe it is unreasonable to expect to be treated with a level of respect. If the kind of verbal abusiveness that appears to be normal on this site happened in a workplace or in a family it would would totally unacceptable and be reported.
I mean, it didn't seem very respectful when you interjected to write me off as a 'radical leftist' with his head in the sand, and how ignorant I am of actual Islamic tenets, during a conversation you weren't even a part of. Equally ironic, is that you take issue with the fact that I have people on my block list, but you personally don't have a problem down-right trying to silence people by reporting them. This is all to say, it's just a bit of forum bamboozlin. You probably shouldn't take it so personally.
The objective standard is: what did you hear him say, or what did you see him do, use a link, that you find disagreeable about Spencer's philosophy?
I already did. What I can't figure out, is what you find wrong with my assessment. Do you not agree that he's a white nationalist aiming to preserve the white race, or do you and just think that's A-okay? Because I'm not sure which of these two positions you take.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:45 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:31 am
The objective standard is: what did you hear him say, or what did you see him do, use a link, that you find disagreeable about Spencer's philosophy?
I already did. What I can't figure out, is what you find wrong with my assessment. Do you not agree that he's a white nationalist aiming to preserve the white race, or do you and just think that's A-okay? Because I'm not sure which of these two positions you take.
No. I've looked through every post you've made in this discussion. There are defiantly no quotes or links at all.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:12 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:45 am
There are defiantly no quotes or links at all.
...Seleucus, you're a caricature unto yourself. You actually quoted this very post, so what the hell is wrong with you? You're free to disagree with my interpretation of the given source, but at least acknowledge that it's there and explain to me why you think I misinterpreted something.

Viveka
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Viveka » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 pm

If racism is so great, then what's the difference between a Zionist racist against non-Jews and a White-supremacist against Jews? Which one is right?

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:45 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:12 pm
Seleucus wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:45 am
There are defiantly no quotes or links at all.
...Seleucus, you're a caricature unto yourself. You actually quoted this very post, so what the hell is wrong with you? You're free to disagree with my interpretation of the given source, but at least acknowledge that it's there and explain to me why you think I misinterpreted something.
The problem is, you haven't used any quotes, those are these things: " ". Instead you've used weasel words: "nuances" or "suggest" to misrepresent Spencer. He no where says at the link, as you insinuate, "more about racial segregation", nor as you go on to repeatedly claim: "eugenics". That's called strawman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:51 am

Viveka wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 pm
If racism is so great, then what's the difference between a Zionist racist against non-Jews and a White-supremacist against Jews? Which one is right?
Seems they're basically equivalent which is why organizations that support White nationalism and also Zionism, such as Brietbart, can exist. I would go even further and say that the formation of Israel redirected Jewish intelligence towards nationalism and away from the previous investment in internationalism, this is probably a significant factor is the global shift towards rightism.

Viveka
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Viveka » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:12 am

Seleucus wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:51 am
Viveka wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 pm
If racism is so great, then what's the difference between a Zionist racist against non-Jews and a White-supremacist against Jews? Which one is right?
Seems they're basically equivalent which is why organizations that support White nationalism and also Zionism, such as Brietbart, can exist. I would go even further and say that the formation of Israel redirected Jewish intelligence towards nationalism and away from the previous investment in internationalism, this is probably a significant factor is the global shift towards rightism.
But according to racism, they can't both be right. There has to be a superior race.

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