Alt-Right Art

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Viveka
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Viveka » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:04 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:06 pm
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:07 am
I think the term came into general use after Trump was elected and so it is associated with his presidency. Whether it shall survive after he leaves office remains to be seen. What gives a word or phrase its legitimacy is not how accurate it is but how popular it is And so if it is no more than stereotyping a conservative world view that does not actually matter so long as it continues to be used
The problem is these white nationalists never stopped using the term themselves, so for one it's creating this false impression that groups trump and spencer into one in the same thing. It may have started off as a way to describe the trump-era of republicans, but that doesn't seem to be where its definition even stopped expanding, because people who are against third-wave feminism have been accused of being 'alt-right', people who are into 4chan memes have been accused of being 'alt-right', and sometimes even very traditional conservatives like Ben Shapiro are 'alt-right'. These reporters don't have any clear image for what the term actually encompasses, probably because they just don't know what they're talking about.
Londoner wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:22 am
I'd say 'Alt-Right' describes the people with the money.
So another person who wants to change what it actually means? Just goes to show exactly what I'm talking about, here. Very few people who use the term seem to have any solid grasp of what it means - even to themselves - and especially its origin.
Can you define Alt-right for us in terms of what it originally meant?

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm

Viveka wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:04 pm
Can you define Alt-right for us in terms of what it originally meant?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-VctXG ... u.be&t=124

I'm sure I could have found a better video of him describing it beyond all the hyperbolic and metaphoric bullshit, but here it is out of the mouth of the man who coined the term. It is clearly a white Identitarian movement about preserving 'white culture'. He's generally fine with being called a 'white nationalist'. There are even further nuances in other places where Spencer goes on to suggest more about racial segregation, so these are definitely not a group of people you want to accidentally accuse someone of being associated with. Some very bad individuals.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm
Viveka wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:04 pm
Can you define Alt-right for us in terms of what it originally meant?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-VctXG ... u.be&t=124

I'm sure I could have found a better video of him describing it beyond all the hyperbolic and metaphoric bullshit, but here it is out of the mouth of the man who coined the term. It is clearly a white Identitarian movement about preserving 'white culture'. He's generally fine with being called a 'white nationalist'. There are even further nuances in other places where Spencer goes on to suggest more about racial segregation, so these are definitely not a group of people you want to accidentally accuse someone of being associated with. Some very bad individuals.
What's wrong with ethnonationalism? Almost every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity. Why is this "bad" according to you? Or... it's only bad when it's White people, is that it?

Londoner
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Londoner » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:46 pm

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:06 pm
Me: I'd say 'Alt-Right' describes the people with the money.

So another person who wants to change what it actually means? Just goes to show exactly what I'm talking about, here. Very few people who use the term seem to have any solid grasp of what it means - even to themselves - and especially its origin.
That's right, we don't have any solid grasp, because it is a vague term. For example, the gallery mentioned in the OP has been called Alt-Right, but doesn't accept that it is Alt-Right. So since there is such disagreement in how the term is used, I do not see that you can insist your own idea represents a 'solid grasp'. I do not think the origin matters; think of all the things 'liberal' has stood for in politics.

Since that is the case, my suggestion is that the best we can do is understand it as a lobby group, in the same way we might identify 'greens' as a lobby group, without that word being linked to any specific policy.

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Sir-Sister-of-Suck
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Sir-Sister-of-Suck » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:36 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am
What's wrong with ethnonationalism? Almost every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity. Why is this "bad" according to you? Or... it's only bad when it's White people, is that it?
How about you actually read what I write, and don't just selectively glance over my response explaining exactly that it's not only objectionable when it's white people, how Richard Spencer's specific breed of 'ethno-nationalism' is very different than what you're ascribing to be in the roots of other nations, and maybe then you'll get a decent idea of why it seems so bad to me. You incompetent chimp.
Londoner wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:46 pm
That's right, we don't have any solid grasp, because it is a vague term. For example, the gallery mentioned in the OP has been called Alt-Right, but doesn't accept that it is Alt-Right. So since there is such disagreement in how the term is used, I do not see that you can insist your own idea represents a 'solid grasp'. I do not think the origin matters; think of all the things 'liberal' has stood for in politics.
I don't necessarily mind redefining a term from its original meaning, the main problem is that these journalists are doing it accidentally because they're incredibly incompetent. Or they have the intentional goal in mind of trying to associate what they believe to be other problematic groups, in with a group we all agree is detestable. It's creating this moral equivocation and great misunderstanding of what people like Ben Shapiro, or even trump, actually stand for over someone like Richard Spencer.

Its meaning shouldn't even be something that's been lost to history, considering Spencer only coined the term back in 2010.
Since that is the case, my suggestion is that the best we can do is understand it as a lobby group, in the same way we might identify 'greens' as a lobby group, without that word being linked to any specific policy.
What? That doesn't actually help to define the term, because you haven't stated what you consider as an 'alt-right lobby group'. It just leaves me scratching my head, because there are no currently-elected candidates even pushing anything like that. Besides that, I'm pretty sure your assessment is incorrect - I've always associated something like 'greens' with the party affiliation.
Last edited by Sir-Sister-of-Suck on Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Viveka
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Viveka » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:39 pm

Seleucus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm
Viveka wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:04 pm
Can you define Alt-right for us in terms of what it originally meant?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-VctXG ... u.be&t=124

I'm sure I could have found a better video of him describing it beyond all the hyperbolic and metaphoric bullshit, but here it is out of the mouth of the man who coined the term. It is clearly a white Identitarian movement about preserving 'white culture'. He's generally fine with being called a 'white nationalist'. There are even further nuances in other places where Spencer goes on to suggest more about racial segregation, so these are definitely not a group of people you want to accidentally accuse someone of being associated with. Some very bad individuals.
What's wrong with ethnonationalism? Almost every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity. Why is this "bad" according to you? Or... it's only bad when it's White people, is that it?
What's wrong with Ethno-Nationalism? Not everyone had the choice of being born with a certain racial characteristic. I am proud of my racial characteristics, but what about those who are not as prideful?

davidm
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by davidm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:38 am

Seleucus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am
What's wrong with ethnonationalism?
It's moronic.

Just like you and your pals here.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:40 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:36 pm
Seleucus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am
What's wrong with ethnonationalism? Almost every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity. Why is this "bad" according to you? Or... it's only bad when it's White people, is that it?
How about you actually read what I write, and don't just selectively glance over my response explaining exactly that it's not only objectionable when it's white people, how Richard Spencer's specific breed of 'ethno-nationalism' is very different than what you're ascribing to be in the roots of other nations, and maybe then you'll get a decent idea of why it seems so bad to me.
So for the second time... pretty much every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity, so what's wrong with ethnonationalism...?
You incompetent chimp.
No. Stop being verbally abusive towards me.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:41 am

davidm wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:38 am
Seleucus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am
What's wrong with ethnonationalism?
It's moronic.

Just like you and your pals here.
No. Stop being verbally abusive towards me.

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Seleucus
Posts: 667
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:53 am

Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:46 am

Viveka wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:39 pm
Seleucus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:56 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-VctXG ... u.be&t=124

I'm sure I could have found a better video of him describing it beyond all the hyperbolic and metaphoric bullshit, but here it is out of the mouth of the man who coined the term. It is clearly a white Identitarian movement about preserving 'white culture'. He's generally fine with being called a 'white nationalist'. There are even further nuances in other places where Spencer goes on to suggest more about racial segregation, so these are definitely not a group of people you want to accidentally accuse someone of being associated with. Some very bad individuals.
What's wrong with ethnonationalism? Almost every country in the world is an ethnonationalist entity. Why is this "bad" according to you? Or... it's only bad when it's White people, is that it?
What's wrong with Ethno-Nationalism? Not everyone had the choice of being born with a certain racial characteristic. I am proud of my racial characteristics, but what about those who are not as prideful?
So, of the one hundred or so countries which are ethnonational entities, all are evil for that reason? All Korean people are bad because someone in the world might not have black hair and slanty eyes? All Armenians are monsters because someone might not have a pointy nose and black hair? All Bengalis because... All Japanese because... All Mongolians because... That's your problem with ethnonationalism? Or, is there actually no problem at all with it? Ethnonationalism is the desirable norm world wide?

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:47 am

The Romantic movement could probably be called rightist art. Neoclassicism as well. Futurism. Elf art...

2014 Winter Olympics poster called rightist: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O4eox4j1bB4/T ... cist_1.jpg
Last edited by Seleucus on Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.

Londoner
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Londoner » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:49 am

Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:36 pm
What? That doesn't actually help to define the term, because you haven't stated what you consider as an 'alt-right lobby group'. It just leaves me scratching my head, because there are no currently-elected candidates even pushing anything like that. Besides that, I'm pretty sure your assessment is incorrect - I've always associated something like 'greens' with the party affiliation.
I would say that when it comes to words the only way we can define their meaning is the way they are used. If that is fuzzy, or inconsistent, then there is no point in wishing otherwise. (And people who are interested in philosophy do tend to wish otherwise!)

It is interesting that you see 'green' in that way. Here, although there are some Green parties, it is a much vaguer term. If you Google 'Green Politics' the introductory paragraphs name so many ideas called 'green' that the description 'Alt-Right' seems razor sharp by comparison.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:58 am

Londoner wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:49 am
Sir-Sister-of-Suck wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:36 pm
What? That doesn't actually help to define the term, because you haven't stated what you consider as an 'alt-right lobby group'. It just leaves me scratching my head, because there are no currently-elected candidates even pushing anything like that. Besides that, I'm pretty sure your assessment is incorrect - I've always associated something like 'greens' with the party affiliation.
I would say that when it comes to words the only way we can define their meaning is the way they are used. If that is fuzzy, or inconsistent, then there is no point in wishing otherwise. (And people who are interested in philosophy do tend to wish otherwise!)

It is interesting that you see 'green' in that way. Here, although there are some Green parties, it is a much vaguer term. If you Google 'Green Politics' the introductory paragraphs name so many ideas called 'green' that the description 'Alt-Right' seems razor sharp by comparison.
alt-right /ɒltˈraɪt/ /ɑːltˈraɪt/

noun [S]

a political movement originating on social media and online forums, composed of a segment of conservatives who support extreme right-wing ideologies, including white nationalism and anti-Semitism (often used attributively).
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/alt-right

(in the US) an ideological grouping associated with extreme conservative or reactionary viewpoints, characterized by a rejection of mainstream politics and by the use of online media to disseminate deliberately controversial content.
‘many in mainstream conservatism see the alt-right as a serious force’
‘some are seeing this as a victory against the vitriolic online presence of the alt-right’

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/alt-right

people with extreme conservative views, including extreme views about race, who reject ordinary politics and use the internet to spread their opinions. Alt-right is an abbreviation for "alternative right":
The alt-right rejects mainstream conservatism, believing that it under-represents the interests of white nationalists.
a member of the alt-right movement

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... /alt-right

Londoner
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Londoner » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:38 am

Yes, Seleucus. That is how the dictionary records the way the word is used. But does it help us decide if when the art gallery in the OP is called Alt-Right and the gallery disagrees, which is correct? No it doesn't, because words like 'associated with' and 'including' beg the question of whether they are defing characteristics or not.

I would say it is like 'ring species'. Right-wing group A has some things in common with right-wing Group B, Group B has some things in common with Group C, and so on. But when we get to Group Z, they may not have anything in common at all with Group A. Indeed, when it comes to right-wing politics, they are so intolerant of any ideological deviations that we can find that right-wing Group B already hates right-wing Group A more intensely than they hate left-wingers.

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Seleucus
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Re: Alt-Right Art

Post by Seleucus » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:50 pm

Londoner wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:38 am
Yes, Seleucus. That is how the dictionary records the way the word is used. But does it help us decide if when the art gallery in the OP is called Alt-Right and the gallery disagrees, which is correct? No it doesn't, because words like 'associated with' and 'including' beg the question of whether they are defing characteristics or not.

I would say it is like 'ring species'. Right-wing group A has some things in common with right-wing Group B, Group B has some things in common with Group C, and so on. But when we get to Group Z, they may not have anything in common at all with Group A. Indeed, when it comes to right-wing politics, they are so intolerant of any ideological deviations that we can find that right-wing Group B already hates right-wing Group A more intensely than they hate left-wingers.
Yes, I am acquainted with your ideas of fuzziness and non-essentiality as we have discussed said a few times before... :lol:

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