What is art?

What is art? What is beauty?

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Philosophy Explorer
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What is art?

Post by Philosophy Explorer » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:45 am

Is it anything that pleases the senses? (which nowadays is said to be seven or eight of them). Does that make my local prostitute "art?" I don't think so. How does this depend on the "patron of the arts?" Someone who has been schooled in the history of the arts and supposed to have fine tastes such as a wine taster or epicurean e.g.?
Or does art exist in the object which could make nature an artist? A bunch of questions, but are we closer to an answer? What is that essence of art that seems to be beyond the definable?

PhilX
Last edited by Philosophy Explorer on Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pluto
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Re: What is art?

Post by Pluto » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:12 pm


Nick_A
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Re: What is art?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:16 am

Philosophy Explorer wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:45 am
Is it anything that pleases the senses? (which nowadays is said to be seven or eight of them). Does that make my local prostitute "art?" I don't think so. How does this depend on the "patron of the arts?" Someone who has been schooled in the history of the arts and supposed to have fine tastes such as a wine taster or epicurean e.g.?
Or does art exist in the object which could make nature an artist? A bunch of questions, but are we closer to an answer? What is that essence of art that seems to be beyond the definable?

PhilX
As I understand it, art doesn't exist but rather it occurs. A telephone call doesn't exist, it occurs. A person can be called an artist as opposed to an expressionist when they have the ability to communicate through a work of art the emotion they are trying to communicate. When people receive the same quality of emotion the artist feels when creating a work of art, then you can say art has taken place.

Brainpickings is a favorite site of mine. Reading Tolstoy's book "What is Art" is only useful for those with a sincere interest in the question. However there are excerpts on the Net and Brainpickings includes some.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/09/0 ... tiousness/

There are many ideas worth while discussing. for example:
“A real work of art destroys, in the consciousness of the receiver, the separation between himself and the artist.” Leo tolstoy
Modern society values intellectual communication but our potential for direct emotional communication isn't valued which is why art and imagination are often considered the same. I find it frightening that the value of art for the human psyche is considered the same as good scotch. Just let imagination flow and people will call it art. But at least it is partial compensation that people like Tolstoy actually understood what art is and those interested can learn from them

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Greta
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Re: What is art?

Post by Greta » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:28 am

Art is 1) in the doing, as Nick mentioned (one can even apply artistry to any activity, from music to accountancy to house cleaning). 2) Art is in the eye of the beholder. So attractive people or scenery may affect someone as if they were works of art.

Ultimately art, sport, games, pastimes, crafts, socialising and science/philosophy are the same thing - the things we enjoy when free from compulsory group-oriented tasks, eg. work, domestics.

uwot
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Re: What is art?

Post by uwot » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:56 am

Anything that takes more than two seconds to decide whether it is art.

Nick_A
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Re: What is art?

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:48 pm

Greta wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:28 am
Art is 1) in the doing, as Nick mentioned (one can even apply artistry to any activity, from music to accountancy to house cleaning). 2) Art is in the eye of the beholder. So attractive people or scenery may affect someone as if they were works of art.

Ultimately art, sport, games, pastimes, crafts, socialising and science/philosophy are the same thing - the things we enjoy when free from compulsory group-oriented tasks, eg. work, domestics.
A lot of things are being done but why call them art? You don't seem to distinguish between art and expression. This may be natural for a secularist but this failure to distinguish hampers emotional intelligence like few other attitudes can.

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Greta
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Re: What is art?

Post by Greta » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:31 am

Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:48 pm
Greta wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:28 am
Art is 1) in the doing, as Nick mentioned (one can even apply artistry to any activity, from music to accountancy to house cleaning). 2) Art is in the eye of the beholder. So attractive people or scenery may affect someone as if they were works of art.

Ultimately art, sport, games, pastimes, crafts, socialising and science/philosophy are the same thing - the things we enjoy when free from compulsory group-oriented tasks, eg. work, domestics.
A lot of things are being done but why call them art? You don't seem to distinguish between art and expression. This may be natural for a secularist but this failure to distinguish hampers emotional intelligence like few other attitudes can.
Making personal remarks may be natural for a theist but this failure to distinguish the personal from the topic at hand hampers the quality of discourse like few other attitudes can.

Whatever, art is inherently expressive of the artist. That's impossible to avoid. Expressionist art, of course, blurs your distinction completely.

Do you see Jackson Pollock's Blue Poles as "art" or "something a child could do"?

Nick_A
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Re: What is art?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:44 am

Greta wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:31 am
Nick_A wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:48 pm
Greta wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:28 am
Art is 1) in the doing, as Nick mentioned (one can even apply artistry to any activity, from music to accountancy to house cleaning). 2) Art is in the eye of the beholder. So attractive people or scenery may affect someone as if they were works of art.

Ultimately art, sport, games, pastimes, crafts, socialising and science/philosophy are the same thing - the things we enjoy when free from compulsory group-oriented tasks, eg. work, domestics.
A lot of things are being done but why call them art? You don't seem to distinguish between art and expression. This may be natural for a secularist but this failure to distinguish hampers emotional intelligence like few other attitudes can.
Making personal remarks may be natural for a theist but this failure to distinguish the personal from the topic at hand hampers the quality of discourse like few other attitudes can.

Whatever, art is inherently expressive of the artist. That's impossible to avoid. Expressionist art, of course, blurs your distinction completely.

Do you see Jackson Pollock's Blue Poles as "art" or "something a child could do"?
Secularism by definition is secular. its only concern is for one level of reality. Art and expression are the same for one level of reality. If you consider common sense personal then that's what it is.

I have no idea by what definition Jackson Pollock's Blue Poles can be considered art other than to say that art and expression are the same. The word art loses its meaning and only serves the purpose of flattery and making money. If a person has an exhibition of their expression no one will come. If the purpose of the exhibition is to display and sell "art" people come and buy. Art sells and expression doesn't even though they are now considered the same. Mark Twain must have had something good to say about this.

Walker
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Re: What is art?

Post by Walker » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:47 am

Pluto wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:12 pm
Or maybe - What Art Is:

http://hyperallergic.com/57158/ayn-rands-theory-of-art/
Rand dismissed the chaos she couldn’t control by chalking it up to corruptions such as greed and sloth. Pollock saw past that to the beauty of nature. His work is more encompassing than Rand’s vision, and wild like the West, which is why he’s a giant. Rand tried to shape chaos into the order of human control. Pollock corralled and herded chaos, which required going along for the ride to stay in touch.

Art is the artist, in another form.

The artist might even exist in the form of a forger.

Nick_A
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Re: What is art?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:52 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:47 am
Pluto wrote:
Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:12 pm
Or maybe - What Art Is:

http://hyperallergic.com/57158/ayn-rands-theory-of-art/
Rand dismissed the chaos she couldn’t control by chalking it up to corruptions such as greed and sloth. Pollock saw past that to the beauty of nature. His work is more encompassing than Rand’s vision, and wild like the West, which is why he’s a giant. Rand tried to shape chaos into the order of human control. Pollock corralled and herded chaos, which required going along for the ride to stay in touch.

Art is the artist, in another form.
Nice expression but why call it art?

Walker
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Re: What is art?

Post by Walker » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:55 am

Because of the qualities that make it authentic.

What is authentic?

Seeing or hearing a work for the first time, and knowing who the artist is, because the work is the artist.

Nick_A
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Re: What is art?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:58 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:55 am
Because of the qualities that make it authentic.
Which are? A kid scribbles on paper. It is authentic but is it art?

Walker
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Re: What is art?

Post by Walker » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:03 am

Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:58 am
Walker wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:55 am
Because of the qualities that make it authentic.
Which are? A kid scribbles on paper. It is authentic but is it art?
No, a kid's scribbling is not authentic, in the sense that it has already been described.

The qualities that make a work of art authentic, are what make the work indistinguishable from the artist, in another form.

You look at a Pollock, you see the American West. And, you are looking at Pollock.

You look at a Basquiat, you see the tribalism of NY streets. And, you are looking at Basquiat.
(I think he's the one on the right. http://d2jv9003bew7ag.cloudfront.net/up ... coverr.jpg)

The literalness and poignancy of identity is illustrated by de Kooning, who continued working well into senility, and that can be seen in his work even though he was an abstract expressionist more representational than Pollock.

Nick_A
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Re: What is art?

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:22 am

Walker wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:03 am
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:58 am
Walker wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:55 am
Because of the qualities that make it authentic.
Which are? A kid scribbles on paper. It is authentic but is it art?
No, a kid's scribbling is not authentic, in the sense that it has already been described.

The qualities that make a work of art authentic, are what make the work indistinguishable from the artist, in another form.

You look at a Pollock, you see the American West. And, you are looking at Pollock.

You look at a Basquiat, you see the tribalism of NY streets. And, you are looking at Basquiat.
(I think he's the one on the right. http://d2jv9003bew7ag.cloudfront.net/up ... coverr.jpg)
All I experience are expressions - subjective opinions. Is this what this most magnificent word has sunk to? Secularism is an effect it is the result of the psychological loss of the emotional experience of objective value. Art can transmit the emotional experience of objective value. Only a relative few are aware of it so the words art and expression are considered the same. This is called progress.

Walker
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Re: What is art?

Post by Walker » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:26 am

Yes, there's great objective value in a Pollock, and I could well describe it, but the description does not confer the value. All you need do is be in the presence of him, as that form carries as much impact as human presence.

And as you were posting while I was editing you may have have missed it, but the literalness and poignancy of identity is illustrated by de Kooning, who continued working well into senility, and that can be seen in his work even though he was an abstract expressionist more representational than Pollock.

It takes great technical skill and understanding to unleash on the canvas as they did, and it’s right there to be seen. It requires no proof of words. One might say, like seeing the ever presence of the divine. And then, to even go beyond that, to stay in the game is to become the game, the painting when all else that was, is gone. Amazing and natural. I think his work must have literally been breath.

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