Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

What is art? What is beauty?

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marjoram_blues
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:54 am

Pluto wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:So, Pluto - looking back at all the responses so far, what have we got?
A definite no, it is not true that X because blah, blah, blah.
A definite yes, it is true that X because blah, blah, blah.
And a few other points of view.
What about a perhaps, it is sometimes true that some art is sometimes capable of being a medium of some kind of truth because blah, blah, blah.

Do you think that the word 'truth' is the sticking point ?
Yes MB, all the responses are great - but it's too early for me to know what to think or say. Authenticity is something that I see as being connected to the idea of truth. I have also been looking at Stoic Philosophy as something of interest. Then also reading a book on TRUTH that talks about Hermeneutics as being a way to consider something as being a truth. How one interprets and sees a thing. And then to be able to discuss why one interpretation may be better or worse than another.

I wrote ALL ARTISTS ARE A PRODUCT OF SOCIETY on a canvas and a person said ah a truism. But this response sounded more like a critique than not.

The truth I am thinking about is perhaps attached to notions of authenticity, this is where I'm at now. Authentic mass culture we don't have.
Interesting path you have set out on. As for being too early to know what to think or say - I would be surprised if you hadn't already formed an opinion. Sometimes it's good to get it out there as a first step on your sailing voyage
Then you can chart your whole thinking progress, from start to finish. But yeah, I get that it's good to take your time and step away from the melee - to read and absorb at your leisure.

I think this is a fascinating process. Some of those on board the good ship PN might already think they know the end destination - been there, done that. But who knows when a gust of wind will take you off the beaten channels. Or a bright sun seduce ? And then, of course, there are the pirates...

What would the Stoics say about facing the hard truths of life, and living it well?
Happy sailing!

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HexHammer
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by HexHammer » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:00 am

marjoram_blues wrote:
HexHammer wrote:
Pluto wrote:The central question to be asked about art is this one: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?
Your point is moot as ...yes it can ..but also can be a medium of lies, therefore no one knows when it's a lie or truth, and the result is inconsequential.
/
I agree that art can be used in both ways and sometimes nobody can discern what is real. But how is this 'inconsequential' ?
Because you don't know when it's true or false, well maybe I'm just using the word wrong. I'm not a linguistic.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:40 pm

HexHammer wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:
HexHammer wrote:Your point is moot as ...yes it can ..but also can be a medium of lies, therefore no one knows when it's a lie or truth, and the result is inconsequential.
/
I agree that art can be used in both ways and sometimes nobody can discern what is real. But how is this 'inconsequential' ?
Because you don't know when it's true or false, well maybe I'm just using the word wrong. I'm not a linguistic.
Well, I took the word 'inconsequential' to mean 'not important'. I think it is important to be able to tell when some art- e.g. a photograph or cartoon, might be trying to present a false image or message as true.
Don't you?

On a silly level, the use of trompe-l'oeil - an optical illusion which gives a false perspective. Driving hell for leather at a painted tunnel on a hard rock-face wouldn't get you very far - but a smashing time and a bit of a headache.
Looney Tunes.

Pluto
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by Pluto » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:25 pm

Yes MB, I was looking for stoic art but found none, maybe they thought art superfluous.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by marjoram_blues » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:16 pm

Pluto wrote:Yes MB, I was looking for stoic art but found none, maybe they thought art superfluous.
From the little I know of Stoic philosophy, you could be right - depending on the art.

I would say that their aesthetic sense would be simple and natural, based on their ethics. Possibly, their art was in their words and deeds, reflecting a notion of goodness or virtue?

Now, you really have caught my interest - I have a few books on stoicism and, my hero is Marcus Aurelius!!
Perhaps his Meditations will reveal some truth about any art as objects ?

I think though it would be in the practical sphere - design of clothes/buildings...

artisticsolution
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by artisticsolution » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:30 pm

Regarding your cartoon, Pluto...I think it might be that the main difference between the cartoonist and the culprits in his cartoon is merely one of power.

The cartoonist uses the only weapon at his disposal to attack. I tend to believe if he had more or different weapons in his arsenal, he would change tactics and use them to punish, just as the USA, Putin, ISIS, etc use thier power.

It is the nature of the beast...

But it doesn't have to be..

We can choose to change our way of thinking. We can promote kindness instead of always thinking up new ways to punish. We can choose to reward good instead of punishing evil.

Imo, this will work far better to help mankind than all this anger towards everyone.

I do concede...it's almost next to impossible to change this in ourselves. But I think it's worth trying over and over until it gets in bedded in our way of thinking.

Purity of heart is to will one thing. To tame ourselves and our vicious mindset , is the ultimate control and power.

Truth is not vengeance. Truth is not retaliation or one up Mansfield. Truth is benign. It has no value as it

Walker
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by Walker » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:44 am

The cartoon smile lowers the horizon.

Trying to tame thoughts sets up a mental conflict, which is a form of self-directed violence that projects outward to bounce off events. Final resolution of mental conflict caused by attempts to tame is actually sudden and effortless, after the habitual quagmire of weighing and choosing.

The question is, is all that efforted drama leading to the effortless resolution of a mental conflict that habit turns into taming, really necessary? Actually, it’s not. Vacillation just becomes the road more traveled and familiar, even when exit clauses are delusional.

Why pretend? When asked the obvious, if revenge was his motivation to write, Woody Allen replied, is there any other reason? Point being at least in art, that honesty trumps motive.

Therefore it is written
that in the words of the OP
without truth there is no art.

artisticsolution
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by artisticsolution » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:48 am

Walker wrote: Therefore it is written
that in the words of the OP
without truth there is no art.
In a world where truth is considered anything anyone wants it to be, I suppose you're right.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by marjoram_blues » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:58 am

Considering types of art reflecting types of truth.
Pluto has been looking for Stoic art without much success, so far.
So, would art found in different times, places reflect different cultural truths about the world, or knowledge about the universe; and is there anything unifying or connecting each kind of truth or people?

It set me thinking of Australia; its indigenous people > the 'white contact' > the multicultural society it is today. The basic first artwork, painted on stone - information in this artwork about the nearest waterhole - or warning of the presence of crocodile. It would be vital for this information to have real truth-value.
Imagine a weary wanderer worming along the wasteland to find... no water.
Imagine their dying words: 'Fuck it ! Art is not capable of being a medium of the truth'.
An indignant and sorrowful 'Sorry mate, but it was true at the time' - offers no consolation. But please don't give up on any kind of artwork just because sometimes it doesn't give true information about the world. It begs the question of what art is for.

Stories are painted. Stories are told. Stories are sung. There is a unifying and underlying truth about people. We all have our stories. Told in different art forms at different levels for different audiences. Some might be secret and sacred. Some simple cosy chattering signifying nothing much at all. All have a truth-value; ranging from God's honest Truth to downright Facebook Falsehoods.

I think the important thing is (even if, or especially when, our own story might seem 'true' to us) to remain open and to actively listen, question and reflect on other options.
Isn't that the challenge and the art of philosophy?

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by marjoram_blues » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:06 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Walker wrote: Therefore it is written
that in the words of the OP
without truth there is no art.
In a world where truth is considered anything anyone wants it to be, I suppose you're right.
In a world where art is open to all, truths can be explored.

Walker
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by Walker » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:37 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
Walker wrote: Therefore it is written
that in the words of the OP
without truth there is no art.
In a world where truth is considered anything anyone wants it to be, I suppose you're right.
Truth is what accords with reality, which doesn't mean depict reality. If someone wants a delusion to accord with reality, and it doesn't, then it is not truth ... it's often a Dem fantasy.

artisticsolution
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by artisticsolution » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:14 pm

marjoram_blues wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:
Walker wrote: Therefore it is written
that in the words of the OP
without truth there is no art.
In a world where truth is considered anything anyone wants it to be, I suppose you're right.
In a world where art is open to all, truths can be explored.
Hi M,

I feel more comfortable saying , "In a world where art is open to all, opinions/things can be explored."

The problem I see with the "truth" word being so casually passed around, is that is diminishes the power of the word, "Truth".

The word 'truth' should not be used as a filler....as the word "Thing" i.e. "hand me the 'thing', please".

The word "truth" is the ultimate end all be all of existence. It should be reserved for only those times when truth is exposed as fact.

marjoram_blues
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by marjoram_blues » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:49 pm

artisticsolution wrote:
marjoram_blues wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:
In a world where truth is considered anything anyone wants it to be, I suppose you're right.
In a world where art is open to all, truths can be explored.
Hi M,

I feel more comfortable saying , "In a world where art is open to all, opinions/things can be explored."

The problem I see with the "truth" word being so casually passed around, is that is diminishes the power of the word, "Truth".

The word 'truth' should not be used as a filler....as the word "Thing" i.e. "hand me the 'thing', please".

The word "truth" is the ultimate end all be all of existence. It should be reserved for only those times when truth is exposed as fact.
I think that the concept of truth can be discussed in simple or complex terms.
As previously suggested, we need to clear with our definitions.
I chose to interpret the OP as an issue about what, or whether, different kinds of art could reveal to us about the world in which we live. And the different perspectives, or ways of seeing our small 'truths', not A Grand Absolute Truth.

I see the value of art in - I suppose - a way of opening up individual worlds from narrow to wider perspectives. Or perhaps v.v. I think it is exciting how art can be used - perhaps as a teaching, even enlightening tool...

I have to admit I am returning to this thread a bit cold, and off the boil. And if truth be told, more than a little weary.
That's all, from me, for now.

Pluto
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by Pluto » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:54 am

It could be how you make something - the way a thing is rendered that is truthful somehow
toy portrait (1).jpgSMALL.jpg
toy portrait (1).jpgSMALL.jpg (167.88 KiB) Viewed 1965 times

Pluto
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Re: Is art capable of being a medium of truth?

Post by Pluto » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:06 pm

The artwork is today not as important as the artist and her marketing skills and finesse at engaging with media and managing their persona - in this the work is secondary - artefacts, what was left behind by the artist. Relics.

Like conceptual art where the idea outranks the material artwork - so today is the artwork losing its meaning. Has lost its significance. Or rather has changed its significance and meaning to something else. Sensibility is more important than ideas of talent or a skill. The work started out as something else, but in the making presented another type of picture, which was pursued and helped to come about. Of course this idea is as old as the hills.

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