Would you rather die than work?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

artisticsolution
Posts: 1934
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Would you rather die than work?

Post by artisticsolution » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:49 pm

I have to admit, I don't understand this concept, but it has been on my mind ever since Duszek said she would rather die than work...or something to that effect.

I can't imagine a life of not working and I think most people in the USA would rather work than die....but that sounds a little morose, like you only have 2 choices and would only choose work as the lesser of 2 evils. That is not the way I would describe how Americans like me feel about work. When I think of work...I think of fun...I think of it as giving me a purpose..I think of it as a social outing...in other words, I think of something to live for.

Most Americans dream of getting the job they love...not only that, I think they try to find ways of making a job fun...even if they have one that is not great. They may not always want to go to work every single day of their lives, but I think for the most part...they like to work more than they like to not work.

Would you rather die than work and if so...why?

tbieter
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by tbieter » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:21 pm

What is the source of Duszek's livelihood? Welfare? A husband?

I learned early that I would have to work to support myself. I loved practicing law. I was glad that I was alive and not dead.

duszek
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by duszek » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:12 am

If you mean that work is "doing something interesting and meaningful" then I work 24 hours per day without hesitation, repetition or interruption.

If work is fun then work disappears, from my point of view, because fun eclipses work.
Work is only if you do something because you cannot avoid it if you want to survive.

AS does not remember correctly. I refused "performance" as a general fun killer.
Performance is highly connected with work, from my experience.

TBieter: I support myself, thank you. And I hope to do it until I die.

Typist
Posts: 500
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:12 am

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by Typist » Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:46 pm

duszek wrote:If work is fun then work disappears, from my point of view, because fun eclipses work.
Right, agreed. Everybody wants to be rich, but that's no guarantee of the real goal, happiness. The smarter path is to insist on a career we enjoy, and then we are happy now, and effectively retired already, whatever our age or income.

However, like with everything else, there is a price to be paid.

First, we can't insist on fun every single minute. Having a career we enjoy requires effort, and sometimes doing things we'd prefer not to do. A perfect state of permanent fun is not in the cards.

Second, once we've had a career that we sincerely enjoy, it can be very difficult to impossible to give that up. Thus, for some, the choice of death over a typical job is understandable.

An exaggerated example might help. Which would you prefer, death or life in prison?

Finally, who says death is bad? It might be the best thing that will ever happen to us! Given that it's going to happen in any case, an open mind is advisable.

tbieter
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by tbieter » Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:05 pm

Typist wrote:
duszek wrote:If work is fun then work disappears, from my point of view, because fun eclipses work.
Right, agreed. Everybody wants to be rich, but that's no guarantee of the real goal, happiness. The smarter path is to insist on a career we enjoy, and then we are happy now, and effectively retired already, whatever our age or income.

However, like with everything else, there is a price to be paid.

First, we can't insist on fun every single minute. Having a career we enjoy requires effort, and sometimes doing things we'd prefer not to do. A perfect state of permanent fun is not in the cards.

Second, once we've had a career that we sincerely enjoy, it can be very difficult to impossible to give that up. Thus, for some, the choice of death over a typical job is understandable.

An exaggerated example might help. Which would you prefer, death or life in prison?

Finally, who says death is bad? It might be the best thing that will ever happen to us! Given that it's going to happen in any case, an open mind is advisable.
Here is some clarification of work and play by Michael Oakeshotte.
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008 ... nd-play-15

tbieter
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:45 pm
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by tbieter » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:03 am


chaz wyman
Posts: 5305
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by chaz wyman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:54 am

artisticsolution wrote:I have to admit, I don't understand this concept, but it has been on my mind ever since Duszek said she would rather die than work...or something to that effect.

I can't imagine a life of not working and I think most people in the USA would rather work than die....but that sounds a little morose, like you only have 2 choices and would only choose work as the lesser of 2 evils. That is not the way I would describe how Americans like me feel about work. When I think of work...I think of fun...I think of it as giving me a purpose..I think of it as a social outing...in other words, I think of something to live for.

Most Americans dream of getting the job they love...not only that, I think they try to find ways of making a job fun...even if they have one that is not great. They may not always want to go to work every single day of their lives, but I think for the most part...they like to work more than they like to not work.

Would you rather die than work and if so...why?
I think you would be more convincing if you did not try and generalise your position to pretend that you are qualified to speak for other Americans. And what do you think you add by using the phrase "Americans like me"? why not people like me (which is as accurate, though redundant)?
What is your job, btw?

chaz wyman
Posts: 5305
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by chaz wyman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:56 am

duszek wrote:If you mean that work is "doing something interesting and meaningful" then I work 24 hours per day without hesitation, repetition or interruption.

If work is fun then work disappears, from my point of view, because fun eclipses work.
Work is only if you do something because you cannot avoid it if you want to survive.

AS does not remember correctly. I refused "performance" as a general fun killer.
Performance is highly connected with work, from my experience.

TBieter: I support myself, thank you. And I hope to do it until I die.
I think he asked HOW.

duszek
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by duszek » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:07 pm

Tom Sawyer made boys pay him a fee for the fun of painting his aunt´s fence.
The boys were not working according to my criteria.

If you are inexperienced and paint your apartment you are working like hell no matter what.
You can try slowly to eliminate work and to increase play but it takes time.
Last time I figured out that the right breathing helps a lot if you wish to move your arm efficiently.
Those who are good at karate (like my brother) or some other martial art may be also good at painting ceilings if they apply their energy in a certain way.
I was exhausted when it was finally over. It was work. Nobody paid me for it. I saved expenses of course.

Going to a party and making conversation with unpleasant people may be even worse than work, it can be torture.
Many leisure activities would be work for me, or worse.

Some criminals call their activities "work" but to me this is an abuse of language.

"Making love" can be such a terrible work that it puts you off being alive, and it can be so wonderful that it happens on its own.

I try to organize my life in such a way that work is reduced to a minimum.

A life sentence in a nice prison with nice inmates and a good library may be a nice option.
The problem would be food and walking facilities.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Maybe I equal work with what Kant calls ethically valuable: it is something which you do although you do not feel like it.

chaz wyman
Posts: 5305
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by chaz wyman » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:30 pm

duszek wrote:Tom Sawyer made boys pay him a fee for the fun of painting his aunt´s fence.
The boys were not working according to my criteria.

If you are inexperienced and paint your apartment you are working like hell no matter what.
You can try slowly to eliminate work and to increase play but it takes time.
Last time I figured out that the right breathing helps a lot if you wish to move your arm efficiently.
Those who are good at karate (like my brother) or some other martial art may be also good at painting ceilings if they apply their energy in a certain way.
I was exhausted when it was finally over. It was work. Nobody paid me for it. I saved expenses of course.

Going to a party and making conversation with unpleasant people may be even worse than work, it can be torture.
Many leisure activities would be work for me, or worse.

Some criminals call their activities "work" but to me this is an abuse of language.

"Making love" can be such a terrible work that it puts you off being alive, and it can be so wonderful that it happens on its own.

I try to organize my life in such a way that work is reduced to a minimum.

A life sentence in a nice prison with nice inmates and a good library may be a nice option.
The problem would be food and walking facilities.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Maybe I equal work with what Kant calls ethically valuable: it is something which you do although you do not feel like it.
So what is it that you actually to to make money?

duszek
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by duszek » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:15 pm

Can it matter ?

Anything you do and get paid for and makes you feel good and not working.
Luckily, it is not the same for everyone.

A Hungarian felicologist with a difficult name argued not so long ago that you can feel happy working at the assemly line even, if you are in the right "flow".

artisticsolution
Posts: 1934
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am
Contact:

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by artisticsolution » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:48 pm

chaz wyman wrote:
artisticsolution wrote:I have to admit, I don't understand this concept, but it has been on my mind ever since Duszek said she would rather die than work...or something to that effect.

I can't imagine a life of not working and I think most people in the USA would rather work than die....but that sounds a little morose, like you only have 2 choices and would only choose work as the lesser of 2 evils. That is not the way I would describe how Americans like me feel about work. When I think of work...I think of fun...I think of it as giving me a purpose..I think of it as a social outing...in other words, I think of something to live for.

Most Americans dream of getting the job they love...not only that, I think they try to find ways of making a job fun...even if they have one that is not great. They may not always want to go to work every single day of their lives, but I think for the most part...they like to work more than they like to not work.

Would you rather die than work and if so...why?
I think you would be more convincing if you did not try and generalise your position to pretend that you are qualified to speak for other Americans. And what do you think you add by using the phrase "Americans like me"? why not people like me (which is as accurate, though redundant)?
What is your job, btw?
Huh...interesting you should take notice of my generalizing about Americans, but not your own in other threads.

But whatever...just a side observation. The truth is I see your point. What I meant when I said, "American's like me" was American's who are around my age or older, who were raised with a similar work ethic...like perhaps Tom. I don't include younger American's as I feel there may be too big of a generation gap that I can not account for what they have experienced as far as how they took the teachings of their elders (Me and Tom) in congunction with the teaching of their peers. I was not raised by me nor did my friends have all the same circumstances that today's generation has. SO my view of things may be not the general tone of younger Americans. Does that make my meaning more clear?

You ask, "Why not people like me?" Well, I think you know there is a difference between a knowledge you can have from someone who is your contemporary vs. someone who is not (meaning lives in another country, comes from another culture, is raised in another generation...etc.)

I just have a hunch that Tom and I have similar work ethics, as do some other Americans of our general mindset. Not that I think that all American's have this mindset...only that most working or retired from a life of work...would have similar traits that would not be found in people who did not like work or never worked in America. I could not speak about people in other culture as I would not be able to know them or how they were brainwashed by their society the way I would know my own upbringing during that time in America.

As for my Job, I am an artist. I have had lots of commissions to paint everything from t shirts to walls. I will paint anything. In the past I have been a maid (housekeeper they call it now), busgirl, Real estate agent, instructor, Cosmetologist, Manicurist, waitress, well, you get the picture. What I am saying is that no matter what I did, it was the same for me...it gave me the feeling I had a purpose. Work made me happy in sense because I was able to break free from my own problems and realize I am not just an "I". I am part of a whole. And as such was needed in way being alone and left to my own devices could never fulfill. The thing that made me happy was stepping outside of myself to consider another. I just have a feeling that Tom has similar thoughts...esp. when he talked about manners. I think maybe we had the same cultural type "brainwashing"...if you'd like to call it that. Personally, I would just like to say we pursued the "American" dream of happiness...but I know saying that will make you crazy...lol. But what the hell...I'm evil. :twisted: :lol:

duszek
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:27 pm
Location: Thin Air

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by duszek » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:30 pm

My family´s work ethic is more or less the same.
But.
There are jobs where you have to endure your boss´s bad digestion or PMS or other issues just because you are dependent. And you can worry about your colleagues trying to frame you and to get you into trouble.
This is not lovely and no sense of purpose can compensate this misery.

Being alone and on welfare bears the risk of becoming a bum and an alcoholic. This is not lovely either.

Life should be an art and one has to find a way of living it which allows one to keep the gratest degree of freedom and dignity.

chaz wyman
Posts: 5305
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by chaz wyman » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:55 pm

duszek wrote:Can it matter ?

Anything you do and get paid for and makes you feel good and not working.
Luckily, it is not the same for everyone.

A Hungarian felicologist with a difficult name argued not so long ago that you can feel happy working at the assemly line even, if you are in the right "flow".
How hard is it to actually answer a simple question?
Answer it and I'll tell you why it matters.

lancek4
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:50 pm

Re: Would you rather die than work?

Post by lancek4 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:15 pm

tbieter wrote:What is the source of Duszek's livelihood? Welfare? A husband?

I learned early that I would have to work to support myself. I loved practicing law. I was glad that I was alive and not dead.
The choice presented there is would I rather exist or not exist.

Work itself is necessary to have life.
I think the sentiment might be referring to a few items of our society more that mere 'work'.

The cullture of luxury. The 'you can have the life/career that you want' culture, which really has its basis in a 'albeit mach frie' (sp): work will set you free, as if freedom has to do with the luxury of not having to work, or, doing the work that one wants to (that one feels is worthy of them).

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests