What if Neanderthals had survived?

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Maia
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Maia »

Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:26 am
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am
Skepdick wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:50 am
We already do so for mentally handycapped people, and not only that - we extend them more courtesy and leeway on being tactless and oblivious to laws, customs and cultural norms so there's legal precedent to treating any humanoid similarly.

The question isn't whether they should get rights - obviously they should. Heck - we extend rights and legal protection to pets and animals.

The question is whether they can bear the brunt of the responsibilities that come with those rights, or whether we would be setting them up for failure and ultimately robbing them of autonomy when the calls for "adult supervision" grow louder.
Yes, that's the crux of it. I don't think anyone would disagree that they should be accorded respect and legal protection, but when it comes to things like voting, and living in modern society, there may well be some issues.
'They', i suspect, would NOT be stupid enough to even WANT to BEGIN to vote, especially considering the candidates, in that so-called 'modern society'.

In fact would 'they' even be stupid enough to even BEGIN to WANT to live in that so-called 'modern society', which is being REFERRENCED here?
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am I suppose ultimately we just don't know, because we don't know what Neanderthals were really like. They existed for many tens of thousands of years, far longer than modern humans have,
How many years do you want to CLAIM here, so-called 'modern humans' have existed for?
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am but in all that time never developed anything resembling a settled society.
And by all accounts the so- called 'settled society' is NOT working out to good AT ALL

Maybe because CHANGE is about the MOST Natural 'thing' there IS, and so 'trying to' FIGHT CHANGE, by and through 'settlement' IS JUST A Truly UNNATURAL 'thing' to do.

Being PREPARED FOR CHANGE, and PREPARED FOR VERY QUICK CHANGE, IS, literally, HOW and WHY species ADAPT. AND, those that ARE PREPARED FOR, and DO, CHANGE ARE the FITTEST, and WHO DO SURVIVE
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am Even their art is rudimentary, though they seem to have had some sort of religious belief, or at the very least, sometimes buried their own dead.
Have you SEEN some of the so-called 'art' SHOWN and EXPRESSED, in the days when this is being written?

Is ALL of 'that' NIT rudimentary?
+++How many years do you want to CLAIM here, so-called 'modern humans' have existed for?+++

About 60,000 years, maybe more.

+++And by all accounts the so- called 'settled society' is NOT working out to good AT ALL +++

Humans have lived in settled societies since the end of the Ice Age, first Mesolithic, then Neolithic. This has been fairly successful.

+++Have you SEEN some of the so-called 'art' SHOWN and EXPRESSED, in the days when this is being written?+++

No.
Age
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Age »

Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:21 am
Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:56 am
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:17 pm Let's assume that a surviving population of Neanderthals are discovered in some remote area, say Siberia (in which case they would actually be Denisovans, who are known to have lived there, and are closely related to Neanderthals). How should we treat them?

At the very least, I think most people would agree that they should be left in peace, and protected, as much as possible, and allowed to live and hunt on the land they inhabit. After all, no one else has wanted it.

But should they be given full human rights under the law, and allowed to freely live among us?
This would be like saying, and asking;
I think most people would agree that giraffes should be left in peace, and protected, as much as possible, and allowed to live and hunt on the land they inhabit. But, should they be given full human rights to freely live among us?'
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:17 pm
Perhaps most people would say yes. Neanderthals are, after all, very close to modern humans, and were certainly human in their own right, albeit different. Could they think in the same way that we do, or talk? We just don't know, but obviously, if we found some, we would find out, and make our decision accordingly.

So how about if they weren't Neanderthals, but something more primitive? Where do we draw the line?

Perhaps we're lucky we don't have to worry about such issues, and that our ancestors killed (and probably ate) any that weren't done for with climate change and the end of the Ice Age.

It's worth pointing out though that this is not a totally fantastic scenario, and reports of Siberian "wildmen" have been fairly common in the past.
What is the 'this' word here even referring to, EXACTLY anyway? If 'it' is 'the scenario' you just provided, then there are groups of what 'you' would refer to as 'primitive' already living among 'you', human beings, 'today', in the days when this is being written.

However, what 'you' appear to be MISSING here is the Fact that the way 'you', adult human beings, ARE living, in these days when this is being written, IS Far more 'primitive' than ANY predecessors WERE ever living. NO one was MORE 'primitive' NOR MORE STUPID to POLLUTE their ONE and ONLY home like 'you', adult human beings, ARE DOING, now, when this is being written
Giraffes don't hunt.
In one sense VERY, VERY True. But, in another VERY SUBTLE sense NOT True AT ALL.
Maia
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Maia »

Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:42 am
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:21 am
Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:56 am

This would be like saying, and asking;
I think most people would agree that giraffes should be left in peace, and protected, as much as possible, and allowed to live and hunt on the land they inhabit. But, should they be given full human rights to freely live among us?'



What is the 'this' word here even referring to, EXACTLY anyway? If 'it' is 'the scenario' you just provided, then there are groups of what 'you' would refer to as 'primitive' already living among 'you', human beings, 'today', in the days when this is being written.

However, what 'you' appear to be MISSING here is the Fact that the way 'you', adult human beings, ARE living, in these days when this is being written, IS Far more 'primitive' than ANY predecessors WERE ever living. NO one was MORE 'primitive' NOR MORE STUPID to POLLUTE their ONE and ONLY home like 'you', adult human beings, ARE DOING, now, when this is being written
Giraffes don't hunt.
In one sense VERY, VERY True. But, in another VERY SUBTLE sense NOT True AT ALL.
They graze. Grazing is not hunting. That's why it's called grazing, and not hunting.
Age
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Age »

Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:32 am
Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:26 am
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am

Yes, that's the crux of it. I don't think anyone would disagree that they should be accorded respect and legal protection, but when it comes to things like voting, and living in modern society, there may well be some issues.
'They', i suspect, would NOT be stupid enough to even WANT to BEGIN to vote, especially considering the candidates, in that so-called 'modern society'.

In fact would 'they' even be stupid enough to even BEGIN to WANT to live in that so-called 'modern society', which is being REFERRENCED here?
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am I suppose ultimately we just don't know, because we don't know what Neanderthals were really like. They existed for many tens of thousands of years, far longer than modern humans have,
How many years do you want to CLAIM here, so-called 'modern humans' have existed for?
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am but in all that time never developed anything resembling a settled society.
And by all accounts the so- called 'settled society' is NOT working out to good AT ALL

Maybe because CHANGE is about the MOST Natural 'thing' there IS, and so 'trying to' FIGHT CHANGE, by and through 'settlement' IS JUST A Truly UNNATURAL 'thing' to do.

Being PREPARED FOR CHANGE, and PREPARED FOR VERY QUICK CHANGE, IS, literally, HOW and WHY species ADAPT. AND, those that ARE PREPARED FOR, and DO, CHANGE ARE the FITTEST, and WHO DO SURVIVE
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:04 am Even their art is rudimentary, though they seem to have had some sort of religious belief, or at the very least, sometimes buried their own dead.
Have you SEEN some of the so-called 'art' SHOWN and EXPRESSED, in the days when this is being written?

Is ALL of 'that' NIT rudimentary?
+++How many years do you want to CLAIM here, so-called 'modern humans' have existed for?+++

About 60,000 years, maybe more.
How do you differentiate between so-called 'modern humans' FROM so-called 'non modern humans', EXACTLY?
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:32 am +++And by all accounts the so- called 'settled society' is NOT working out to good AT ALL +++

Humans have lived in settled societies since the end of the Ice Age, first Mesolithic, then Neolithic. This has been fairly successful.
Here is a PRIME EXAMPLE of RELATIVITY AT WORK, and AT PLAY.
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:32 am +++Have you SEEN some of the so-called 'art' SHOWN and EXPRESSED, in the days when this is being written?+++

No.
Okay, but VERY SURPRISING.
Maia
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Maia »

Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:51 am
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:32 am
Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:26 am

'They', i suspect, would NOT be stupid enough to even WANT to BEGIN to vote, especially considering the candidates, in that so-called 'modern society'.

In fact would 'they' even be stupid enough to even BEGIN to WANT to live in that so-called 'modern society', which is being REFERRENCED here?


How many years do you want to CLAIM here, so-called 'modern humans' have existed for?


And by all accounts the so- called 'settled society' is NOT working out to good AT ALL

Maybe because CHANGE is about the MOST Natural 'thing' there IS, and so 'trying to' FIGHT CHANGE, by and through 'settlement' IS JUST A Truly UNNATURAL 'thing' to do.

Being PREPARED FOR CHANGE, and PREPARED FOR VERY QUICK CHANGE, IS, literally, HOW and WHY species ADAPT. AND, those that ARE PREPARED FOR, and DO, CHANGE ARE the FITTEST, and WHO DO SURVIVE


Have you SEEN some of the so-called 'art' SHOWN and EXPRESSED, in the days when this is being written?

Is ALL of 'that' NIT rudimentary?
+++How many years do you want to CLAIM here, so-called 'modern humans' have existed for?+++

About 60,000 years, maybe more.
How do you differentiate between so-called 'modern humans' FROM so-called 'non modern humans', EXACTLY?
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:32 am +++And by all accounts the so- called 'settled society' is NOT working out to good AT ALL +++

Humans have lived in settled societies since the end of the Ice Age, first Mesolithic, then Neolithic. This has been fairly successful.
Here is a PRIME EXAMPLE of RELATIVITY AT WORK, and AT PLAY.
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:32 am +++Have you SEEN some of the so-called 'art' SHOWN and EXPRESSED, in the days when this is being written?+++

No.
Okay, but VERY SURPRISING.
Modern humans are distinguished by their skeletal structure, mainly, and also their associated artefacts.
Age
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Age »

Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:51 am
Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:42 am
Maia wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:21 am

Giraffes don't hunt.
In one sense VERY, VERY True. But, in another VERY SUBTLE sense NOT True AT ALL.
They graze. Grazing is not hunting. That's why it's called grazing, and not hunting.
Okay. If that is ALL and ONLY what happens, then that is ALL takes place here.
Iwannaplato
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Iwannaplato »

Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:40 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:13 pm Neanderthals interbred with homo sapian sapians and 1 to 2 % of Euroasian DNA is Neanderthal. I think it would be very hard to not give them full rights as humans. And once found, more interbreeding would take place. They also were not so far behind Homo sapiens, if they were, in intelligence as once thought. They were probably a lot stronger physically.
Yes, they are indeed our ancestors, at least in part.

It's difficult not to wonder how such liaisons between modern humans and Neanderthals took place. There's little evidence, as far as I know, of the two groups living together, or even in the same types of places. And given what we know, all too well, of human nature, it's not hard to imagine what they thought of each other.
Unfortunately, rape comes to mind. But that might be wrong. Perhaps individuals ended up getting incorporated into groups of the other subspecies. That's possible also. Some say now that interbreeding may have been a large factor in the Ns dying out.

There are some sci-fi books that have a multiverse situation. On another earth it was we who died out and they took over the world. Later the different versions of earth connect and help each other. They have slightly different skills and cultures. I read one or two of these and thought they were well done...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Neanderthal_Parallax
Maia
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Maia »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:32 pm
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:40 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:13 pm Neanderthals interbred with homo sapian sapians and 1 to 2 % of Euroasian DNA is Neanderthal. I think it would be very hard to not give them full rights as humans. And once found, more interbreeding would take place. They also were not so far behind Homo sapiens, if they were, in intelligence as once thought. They were probably a lot stronger physically.
Yes, they are indeed our ancestors, at least in part.

It's difficult not to wonder how such liaisons between modern humans and Neanderthals took place. There's little evidence, as far as I know, of the two groups living together, or even in the same types of places. And given what we know, all too well, of human nature, it's not hard to imagine what they thought of each other.
Unfortunately, rape comes to mind. But that might be wrong. Perhaps individuals ended up getting incorporated into groups of the other subspecies. That's possible also. Some say now that interbreeding may have been a large factor in the Ns dying out.

There are some sci-fi books that have a multiverse situation. On another earth it was we who died out and they took over the world. Later the different versions of earth connect and help each other. They have slightly different skills and cultures. I read one or two of these and thought they were well done...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Neanderthal_Parallax
An interesting premise for those books.

There were no doubt an infinite number of variations on how the two groups came together, but yes, a large percentage of such encounters were almost certainly violent. Raiding parties, for example.
seeds
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by seeds »

Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:59 am
seeds wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:17 pm
Maia wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:17 pm What if Neanderthals had survived?
What are you talking about?

Not only did they survive, but many of them are posting comments on this very forum.

(Sorry, my inner-Neanderthalness couldn't resist grunting-out that lame joke. :D :P)
_______
AND, ANOTHER Truly NON INTELLIGENT WAY TO LIVE IS TO BELIEVE that those who have opposing views to mine are 'neanderthals'.
My apologies to Maia for this momentary off-topic diversion,...

...but in the infinitely slim possibility that thousands of years from now, future archeologists might unearth an ancient computer disk or thumb drive that somehow (and miraculously) still holds the digitally stored conversation taking place between a bunch of idiots on some obscure philosophy forum,...

...then let them discover that "...in the days when this is being written..." there was a member of this forum who had absolutely no sense of humor.

I point this out to you future archeologists (anthropologists/digitologists) because the above-mentioned member was evidently a channeled entity who claimed to have helped inspire the writing of the Bible.

Furthermore, he (she/it) has also claimed to be using the human called "Age" as its newest conduit through-which (again, "...in the days when this is being written...") it can communicate with us adult human beings.

And the point of bringing this to your attention is that if you happen to notice that one of your fellow archeologists is one of the most annoying humans you have ever encountered, then it might just be the reappearance of this channeled entity. :shock:

Anyway, if such is the case, then reaching out to you from the ancient past, you have our deepest sympathy.
_______
User avatar
iambiguous
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by iambiguous »

First, let's start here:

"Neanderthals - Homo neanderthalensis. Language ability: relatively advanced language abilities, but evidence suggests that they may have had a limited vocal range compared to modern humans. If this were the case, then their ability to produce complex sounds and sentences would be affected."

So, of course, in our day and age, if a population of Neanderthals was discovered, how long would it be before those able to master their language were interviewing them on YouTube? They'd be all the rage on social media and then sooner or later ways would be found to get their reactions to everything from Big Macs, pornography and hip hop to smart phones, computers and the internet.

Well, after the anthropologists were done doing their thing with them.

Next up: Neanderthals and dasein. :wink:
Impenitent
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Impenitent »

Image

if they had survived, this commercial wouldn't have been so clever...

-Imp
Atla
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Atla »

seeds wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:55 pm
Age wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:59 am
seeds wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:17 pm
What are you talking about?

Not only did they survive, but many of them are posting comments on this very forum.

(Sorry, my inner-Neanderthalness couldn't resist grunting-out that lame joke. :D :P)
_______
AND, ANOTHER Truly NON INTELLIGENT WAY TO LIVE IS TO BELIEVE that those who have opposing views to mine are 'neanderthals'.
My apologies to Maia for this momentary off-topic diversion,...

...but in the infinitely slim possibility that thousands of years from now, future archeologists might unearth an ancient computer disk or thumb drive that somehow (and miraculously) still holds the digitally stored conversation taking place between a bunch of idiots on some obscure philosophy forum,...

...then let them discover that "...in the days when this is being written..." there was a member of this forum who had absolutely no sense of humor.

I point this out to you future archeologists (anthropologists/digitologists) because the above-mentioned member was evidently a channeled entity who claimed to have helped inspire the writing of the Bible.

Furthermore, he (she/it) has also claimed to be using the human called "Age" as its newest conduit through-which (again, "...in the days when this is being written...") it can communicate with us adult human beings.

And the point of bringing this to your attention is that if you happen to notice that one of your fellow archeologists is one of the most annoying humans you have ever encountered, then it might just be the reappearance of this channeled entity. :shock:

Anyway, if such is the case, then reaching out to you from the ancient past, you have our deepest sympathy.
_______
:lol: :lol: 10/10 comment
Flannel Jesus
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Re: What if Neanderthals had survived?

Post by Flannel Jesus »

seeds wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:55 pm
I'll throw in my appreciation for this as well. I missed this first time around, thanks Atla for bringing it to my attention. Got a smile out of me.

In the days when this was being written.
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