YOU are Abrahamic

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Harbal
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Harbal »

Age wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:12 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am
So I have to ask you self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", where exactly is your hypothetical Philosophy? Where are you different than those "religious zealots" you presume to be so much better than, superior to? How is your ideology any different, when your self-proclaimed, proud beliefs, are the exact same pattern?
GREAT QUESTIONS you ASK here.
I have to strongly disagree with you about that, Age. Questions that beg the question are not great questions. The question is so full of presuppositions that only a fool would consider answering it.
Age
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:27 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:19 pmI had a similar, less specific reaction. I don't see Wizard having original thoughts. He may have them, but so far, he seems to be keeping them to himself.
Correct...I am not proposing an alternative here, only the possibility of one.

Why can't there be an alternative? Why can't we make a new choice?



How about instead of "God did it" and "The Big Bang", how about... NO beginning, NO end? Why not this simple hypothesis?
But there IS NO beginning and WAS NO end is NOT a simple hypothesis, 'it' IS THE SIMPLE IRREFUTABLE Truth, and thus IS JUST A SIMPLE Fact.
Age
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:52 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:49 pmAnd you are missing the point that the "'Cause'" of me dropping the brick down the well might well be that God did it, but there are alternative explanations. There are always alternative explanations.
Yes...and Philosophers want more choice than "pepsi and coke" ... "or root beer".

Could it be that BOTH the Abrahamics AND Secularists got it wrong when it came to Causality??
If ANY one thinks or BELIEVES that there was A BEGINNING, of ANY sort, in relation to the Universe Itself, then 'they' have 'it' ABSOLUTELY Wrong here
Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 12:52 pm Or, at least, they misunderstand the mechanical or organic sources of Causation?
'Causation', itself, exists because creation AND evolution, work TOGETHER, as One.
Age
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Age »

Harbal wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:56 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:12 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am
So I have to ask you self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", where exactly is your hypothetical Philosophy? Where are you different than those "religious zealots" you presume to be so much better than, superior to? How is your ideology any different, when your self-proclaimed, proud beliefs, are the exact same pattern?
GREAT QUESTIONS you ASK here.
I have to strongly disagree with you about that, Age. Questions that beg the question are not great questions. The question is so full of presuppositions that only a fool would consider answering it.
ANY one with A BELIEF, based upon the FOLLOWING of the words of some "other" one, spiritual or scientific, is IN the 'SAME BOAT' here, as some might say. And, it does NOT matter one iota, to me, what the BELIEF IS, EXACTLY.

The VERY REASON WHY it is taking SO LONG for 'you', adult human beings, to RECOGNIZE and SEE the ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE Truth IS because 'you' are ALal being HELD BACK and/or LEAD ASTRAY BECAUSE IF 'your' BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.
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Harbal
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Harbal »

Age wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:24 pm
The VERY REASON WHY it is taking SO LONG for 'you', adult human beings, to RECOGNIZE and SEE the ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE Truth IS because 'you' are ALal being HELD BACK and/or LEAD ASTRAY BECAUSE IF 'your' BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.
I daresay there is some truth in that, but you are also an adult human being, and just as susceptible as anyone else.
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Sculptor
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Sculptor »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am Instead of Faith in God, you have Faith in Science.

Instead of The Church, you have The State.

Instead of "Trust the Priest/Rabbi/Imam", you have "Trust the Experts".

Instead of Creationism, you have The Big Bang.

Instead of Fall from Providence, you have Systemic Oppression.

Instead of Manifest Destiny, you have Determinism.


Faith is the death of reason and the antithesis of science and truth.
Age
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Age »

Harbal wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:44 pm
Age wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:24 pm
The VERY REASON WHY it is taking SO LONG for 'you', adult human beings, to RECOGNIZE and SEE the ACTUAL IRREFUTABLE Truth IS because 'you' are ALal being HELD BACK and/or LEAD ASTRAY BECAUSE IF 'your' BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS.
I daresay there is some truth in that, but you are also an adult human being, and just as susceptible as anyone else.
BUT IF I DO NOT HAVE ANY BELIEFS, and DO NOT WANT TO ASSUME absolutely ANY 'thing', then I can NOT be HELD BACK BECAUSE OF BELIEFS, BUT WILL BE HELD BACK ON THE FAR FEWER TIMES I SLIP UP AND ASSUME 'things'. Therefore, I WOULD BE MUCH LESS SUSCEPTIBLE here than "others", right?
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Harbal wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:00 pmMy alternative to any religion is to have no religion. What do you claim religion to have that I need, and which I must look for elsewhere if I don't look to religion for it?
Where is it? Where are the 'unique' beliefs which set you apart from them?
I don't think I have beliefs in the sense I take you to mean. Obviously, I believe some things to be true, and others not, but I don't believe in any ideology. That includes political or any other ideology. We are all influenced by our upbringing, prevailing social attitudes, and various other things, and I daresay we live our lives without even questioning many of these influences, but to the extent to which it is possible, I need to be the one who figures out how I ought to conduct myself, and what values I should to uphold. It is not for any religious authority to tell me these things.
Sure that's easy to say and claim.

But how easy is it to actually follow-through?

If the OP is true, and these mass beliefs are true across Humanity, then what have you really 'decided' upon exact the same cereal with different packaging?



In other words...where are these 'truly unique ideas' that people ought to have a Choice about?
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:01 pmReally, you don't know any other positions between being an Abrahamist and the atheist person you contrasted it with in the OP?
Creationism or The Big Bang...how are they not the same thing, the same preposition?
They potentially share some similarities. And it was a religious person who first proposed the latter. I don't know what you think the Big Bang or creationism means. They both cover a range of positions.
which versions are you referring to? Different creationisms accept and dismiss, for example, different parts of scientific theories. Some Big Bang theory versions have treated it as the beginning, period. Others do not.
So what versions are we comparing?
You presume it yourself, a "choice" between coke and pepsi is not a choice, and I agree!
Well, it's rare that I drink soda, but if I do, it's coke. But other drinks exist obviously. And do people with positions that don't fit on what seems like a binary schema.
Whether it's Creationism or The Big Bang, these are both Ontologically the same preposition, the hypothetical "Belief in Oneness". It's an abstraction. It can also include belief in 'First Cause' as to Causation and the Physical Universe. Again, all these can be boiled back down to...Monotheism. The desire, the need, the metaphysical compulsion that Humans have...maybe still simple animals, to demand "One Grand Solution", "One Epic Theory", to bind all others, and all knowledge together.

Simple minds need simple answers.

Hence, why it doesn't matter which direction you choose, Religious or Secular, you get the same 'One' outcome.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

phyllo wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:48 pmLet's say that he has identified a pattern.

Then the questions are ... Which ideas and concepts are "non-Abrahamic"? Why would or should we use or adopt them? Why are they better than "Abrahamic"?
At the very least, it would be the "Pre-Abrahamics" and those that preceded the rise of mass religions.

At the very most, it would be the pockets of human resistance across History, which have most greatly resisted the indoctrination of Abrahamic ideology.

In other words, there are types of humans which Resist these mass-delusions and lies, on BOTH ends of the spectrum.

phyllo wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:48 pmFor example ... Created universe, Bing Bang universe, cyclical universe ... so what?
So it matters the foundations by which people build their ideologies or any conception of 'truth'. Even small truths, require some vague notion of empirical standards.

When asking for directions, you still need to succumb to Cardinal directions.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Age wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:12 pmWhat you call "experts" here I certainly would NOT.
Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am
So I have to ask you self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", where exactly is your hypothetical Philosophy? Where are you different than those "religious zealots" you presume to be so much better than, superior to? How is your ideology any different, when your self-proclaimed, proud beliefs, are the exact same pattern?
GREAT QUESTIONS you ASK here.
Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am Are you still not a mind-slave of Catholic Rome after 2000 years? Where is your Resistance? Where is your Freedom? Where are your "New" Ideas?

This is your Buck-Breaking from thousands of years ago: that your parents, grand-parents, great-grand-parents, g-g-g-parents, g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-parents succumbed to.

YOU are Abrahamic.

YOU have NO philosophy, no resistance, no original thoughts.

YOU are still Subject to those who have ruled above you for Millenniums now.

YOU have not...freed your mind.



You have never even touched Philosophy once in your short lives. So close...yet so far away.
Thanks Age, much appreciated
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Sculptor wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:47 pmFaith is the death of reason and the antithesis of science and truth.
It's worse when the Empiricists and Scientists believe themselves 'above' the compulsion to blind-faith, but then fall into its trap without realizing it.

At least the religious zealots are proud about it. The secularists aren't even aware of it.
Iwannaplato
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:49 pm In other words...where are these 'truly unique ideas' that people ought to have a Choice about?
So, you think that atheists, humanists, etc. are demanding people have unique ideas? Is that true?
Further Abrahamism is an extremely unique set of ideas. I think many atheists are happy to point this out. Burning bushes, angels, sacrificing only sons, the very odd dynamic created between the OT and the NT for Christians, Mohammed's sex life, getting eaten by whales...I'm not even scratching the surface.

Certainly humanists could point to all sorts of unique beliefs come up with by non-theists and humanists, but this seems like an odd point to contest.

Hey, you aren't so unique.

Further your OP is suggesting that THE PROCESS through which people get the ideas is the same between Abrahamists and the others. Not that the ideas are weird or unique on one side.

You used the word 'faith'. That seemed the focus. The epistemology.

Now it's the content of the ideas: Hey, you atheists, your ideas are no more unique than Abrahamist ideas. But it's like comparing apples and bicycles. Further, who says this. ARe there really humanists saying

Our humanist ideas are more unique than your religious ideas

In most online discussions, if anything, the atheists at least seem to point out that the religious ideas are weird not banal.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Thu May 25, 2023 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sculptor
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Sculptor »

Wizard22 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:47 pmFaith is the death of reason and the antithesis of science and truth.
It's worse when the Empiricists and Scientists believe themselves 'above' the compulsion to blind-faith, but then fall into its trap without realizing it.
Worst than what?
What is blind faith. It that like wet water?
But yes whenever scientists act like religious people, that is bad.


At least the religious zealots are proud about it. The secularists aren't even aware of it.
Proud to be stupid. Nice!
Iwannaplato
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:57 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:47 pmFaith is the death of reason and the antithesis of science and truth.
It's worse when the Empiricists and Scientists believe themselves 'above' the compulsion to blind-faith, but then fall into its trap without realizing it.

At least the religious zealots are proud about it. The secularists aren't even aware of it.
Religious zealots in general will assert that the Bible makes sense, Darwinism is false and give reasons for these things. There are very few religious zealots content to leave reason out of why they believe what they believe and why atheists are wrong. It happens, but it's pretty rare.

I actually agree. I wouldn't use the word 'faith', but I think that most secular people are using intuition and introjection to degrees they are not aware of.

I also think we have to rely on intuition.

But here you aim it at everyone. YOU are Abrahamic.

Why not show us your own original ideas, your unique ideas that you have gotten from neither science nor abrahamism.

You mentioned earlier the idea that the universe has always been here. There have always been scientists who believed this and in fact when the Big Bang was first proposed many physicists reacted with skepticism precisely because they thought it had always been here. Further there are versions of Big Bang theory where there are eternal cycles of Big Bang and Big Crunch. There are other versions which include enternity in other ways. So, you may very well have come upon that idea on your own, but you reinvented the wheel. Further you might have been influenced by ideas trickling out of science in media and fiction and films.

So you've kind of set yourself up as the free man, the man able to think for himself. You're not like the Abrahamists, and you're not like the humanists, who you consider even worse.

Well, what's the original stuff you've come up with. Because man, you've got some serious competition from both humanists and Abrahamists, because members of both groups have come up with a fucking boatload of unique ideas.

So, what are yours?
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