The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

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Eodnhoj7
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The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

In looking for no contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs.
In looking for no contradiction and seeing none a contradiction of contradiction occurs, thus a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
alan1000
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by alan1000 »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:55 pm In looking for no contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs.
In looking for no contradiction and seeing none a contradiction of contradiction occurs, thus a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
You appear to be using the word "contradiction" in at least two different logical senses of the word. Please clarify.
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

alan1000 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:08 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:55 pm In looking for no contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs.
In looking for no contradiction and seeing none a contradiction of contradiction occurs, thus a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
You appear to be using the word "contradiction" in at least two different logical senses of the word. Please clarify.
And this is further a contradiction thus the paradox grows deeper.

As to clarity:

"a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another."
"a person, thing, or situation in which inconsistent elements are present."

https://www.google.com/search?q=contrad ... e&ie=UTF-8

"Opposition" and "Inconsistency" both differ in the respect that:

1. Opposing things may be consistent elements (i.e. yin and yang or the functions of male and female).
2. Inconsistent elements may not be opposing things (i.e. the branching of a tree or river).
3. Opposition can be symmetrical (i.e. infinite empty space and infinite full space having no distinctions), inconsistency requires a standing apart thus assymetrical.

Opposition and inconsistency oppose each other.
Opposition and inconsistency can have inconsistent states.

But the above can be argued against thus ignored;

1. In looking for no contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs (as one sees the contradiction).

2. In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs (as seeing no contradiction stands apart from what one is looking for).

3. In looking for no contradiction and seeing none a contradiction of contradiction occurs, thus a contradiction occurs (the absence of contradiction seen or looked for is to see an absence of contradiction; i.e. to contradict contradiction or oppose opposition).

4. In looking for a contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs (as one sees contradiction).
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Dontaskme
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Dontaskme »

Do not make sense, makes sense doable and not doable. Do not make sense makes sense and not make sense, thus makes do not make sense doable and not doable, and does and not make sense.

You see! :wink:
Skepdick
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Skepdick »

alan1000 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:08 pm You appear to be using the word "contradiction" in at least two different logical senses of the word. Please clarify.
Could you clarify what is unclear by enumerating the multitude of senses you are struggling to choose from?
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:55 pm In looking for no contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs.
In looking for no contradiction and seeing none a contradiction of contradiction occurs, thus a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
How about 'seeing if it seems to make sense'? You listen to your own attempt, and the other person does. If it seems to make sense to both of you and he takes the pot off the stove, which is what you wanted, then there's a good chance you made sense. Could have been lucky, but over time you might find, by both checking, and looking at results, occasionaly using paraphrases, and other tools, you might get a sense that the communication is working.

Though I may have missed the whole point of the OP. Let me know.

Is the word 'trying' key?

and here...
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:42 pm 2. In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs (as seeing no contradiction stands apart from what one is looking for).
A contradition at the meta-level of looking for contradicitons may have taken place, but you have found one way of not making sense in your communication is absent. So, making sense passed a hurdle.

I say 'may'. Looking for can imply that one wants to find x or not having that as a goal. One can be hoping not to find. It could be 'checking to see if there are contradictions or not.' Found none, but managed with the goal.
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:13 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 7:55 pm In looking for no contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs.
In looking for no contradiction and seeing none a contradiction of contradiction occurs, thus a contradiction occurs.
In looking for a contradiction and seeing one a contradiction occurs.
How about 'seeing if it seems to make sense'? You listen to your own attempt, and the other person does. If it seems to make sense to both of you and he takes the pot off the stove, which is what you wanted, then there's a good chance you made sense. Could have been lucky, but over time you might find, by both checking, and looking at results, occasionaly using paraphrases, and other tools, you might get a sense that the communication is working.

Though I may have missed the whole point of the OP. Let me know.

Is the word 'trying' key?

and here...
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:42 pm 2. In looking for a contradiction and seeing none a contradiction occurs (as seeing no contradiction stands apart from what one is looking for).
A contradition at the meta-level of looking for contradicitons may have taken place, but you have found one way of not making sense in your communication is absent. So, making sense passed a hurdle.

I say 'may'. Looking for can imply that one wants to find x or not having that as a goal. One can be hoping not to find. It could be 'checking to see if there are contradictions or not.' Found none, but managed with the goal.
You missed the point but I will take blame for not being clear enough. In other shorter words:

1. If I look for a contradiction and find one then a contradiction is present in what I have found.

2. If I look for a contradiction and see none then there is a contradiction between what I am looking for and what I see thus a contradiction is still present.

As to point two.

...A contradiction at the meta level is a contradiction....and everything can be observed through metas with enough meta-ing causing a standing apart between all the metas observed (as each meta observation is distinct).
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Agent Smith »

A gold star for clarity ... atypical for someone into contradictions. Anyway, the statement if I find no contradiction when I'm looking for one, there's a contradiction is intriguing, logically speaking.
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:43 pm You missed the point but I will take blame for not being clear enough. In other shorter words:

1. If I look for a contradiction and find one then a contradiction is present in what I have found.
generally looking to see IF there is a contradiction OR NOT. So, whatever one finds the intention is satisfied.
2. If I look for a contradiction and see none then there is a contradiction between what I am looking for and what I see thus a contradiction is still present.
Same as above. Looking to see IF.....OR NOT

IOW you are framing the process of checking as 'my goal is to find a contradiction.' But when one is trying to make sense, that is an oversimplification, in fact a false description, of what one is doing.
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:17 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:43 pm You missed the point but I will take blame for not being clear enough. In other shorter words:

1. If I look for a contradiction and find one then a contradiction is present in what I have found.
generally looking to see IF there is a contradiction OR NOT. So, whatever one finds the intention is satisfied.
2. If I look for a contradiction and see none then there is a contradiction between what I am looking for and what I see thus a contradiction is still present.
Same as above. Looking to see IF.....OR NOT

IOW you are framing the process of checking as 'my goal is to find a contradiction.' But when one is trying to make sense, that is an oversimplification, in fact a false description, of what one is doing.
If the intention of finding a contradiction is satisfied then a contradiction is found.

If the intention of finding a contradiction is not satisfied then there is a contradiction between the intention and what is found.

As to the rest: if one is trying to make sense of the world then the world does not make sense to the individual otherwise they would not have to, nor try to, make sense of it if it already made sense. The act of 'making sense' first requires an absence in making sense. Always making sense of things requires an infinite absence of sense from which sense is made.
Last edited by Eodnhoj7 on Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eodnhoj7
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Agent Smith wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 2:25 am A gold star for clarity ... atypical for someone into contradictions. Anyway, the statement if I find no contradiction when I'm looking for one, there's a contradiction is intriguing, logically speaking.
Haha, clarity in percieving contradictions is a contradiction as contradictions make no sense. My clarity is nonsensical.
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:24 pm If the intention of finding a contradiction is satisfied then a contradiction is found.

If the intention of finding a contradiction is not satisfied then there is a contradiction between the intention and what is found.
Sure but the title of the thread is 'The paradox of trying to make sense-'
And then one is trying to see if there is a contradiction (amongst other things) or not. No paradox, because the goal is not singular and either result meets the goal.
As to the rest: if one is trying to make sense of the world then the world does not make sense to the individual otherwise they would not have to, nor try to, make sense of it if it already made sense.
And now we have a the specific context, which is not trying to make sense when communicating but rather trying to make sense of something. But the same issue holds. Perhaps we have a hypothesis about the world. We try to see IF the hypthesis leads to some contradiction OR NOT. No paradox. If it doesn't make sense our goal of testing the hypothesis was met. If it does make sense, then our goal of finding out if the hypothesis made sense (in relation to contradictions) has been met AND our hypothesis is looking good so far.

No paradoxes.
The act of 'making sense' first requires an absence in making sense. Always making sense of things requires an infinite absence of sense from which sense is made.
Does that make sense? Did you always know it?
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Agent Smith »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:26 pm
Agent Smith wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 2:25 am A gold star for clarity ... atypical for someone into contradictions. Anyway, the statement if I find no contradiction when I'm looking for one, there's a contradiction is intriguing, logically speaking.
Haha, clarity in percieving contradictions is a contradiction as contradictions make no sense. My clarity is nonsensical.
The force is strong with this one! :)
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:58 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:24 pm If the intention of finding a contradiction is satisfied then a contradiction is found.

If the intention of finding a contradiction is not satisfied then there is a contradiction between the intention and what is found.
Sure but the title of the thread is 'The paradox of trying to make sense-'
And then one is trying to see if there is a contradiction (amongst other things) or not. No paradox, because the goal is not singular and either result meets the goal.
As to the rest: if one is trying to make sense of the world then the world does not make sense to the individual otherwise they would not have to, nor try to, make sense of it if it already made sense.
And now we have a the specific context, which is not trying to make sense when communicating but rather trying to make sense of something. But the same issue holds. Perhaps we have a hypothesis about the world. We try to see IF the hypthesis leads to some contradiction OR NOT. No paradox. If it doesn't make sense our goal of testing the hypothesis was met. If it does make sense, then our goal of finding out if the hypothesis made sense (in relation to contradictions) has been met AND our hypothesis is looking good so far.

No paradoxes.
The act of 'making sense' first requires an absence in making sense. Always making sense of things requires an infinite absence of sense from which sense is made.
Does that make sense? Did you always know it?
1. The intent contradicts the observation. If I am looking for a contradiction I am looking for the boundaries of what makes sense...these boundaries makes what is sensible clearer as they are its limits. A contradiction is the limits of sense thus allowing sense to be what it is...sense is dependent on nonsense.

2. You misunderstand...if one is trying to make sense of the world then the world does not make sense, otherwise they would not be trying to make sense of it if it already made sense. People do not formulate and test hypothesis' if sense is already made.

3. I sense that there is nonsense and this nonsense does not make sense thus what I sense is nonsense and the duality between the two is a paradox that leads to the acceptance of nonsense for what it is or is not.
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Re: The Paradox of "Trying to Make Sense"

Post by Iwannaplato »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 11:35 pm 1. The intent contradicts the observation. If I am looking for a contradiction I am looking for the boundaries of what makes sense...these boundaries makes what is sensible clearer as they are its limits. A contradiction is the limits of sense thus allowing sense to be what it is...sense is dependent on nonsense.
It's interesting, in this formulation. But again, I think one is looking to see IF there is a contradiction OR NOT. The intent is open. I'm also not sure if it is 'nonsense' we find. We think there is X always where there is Y. We look to see if this is true. But then we find Y without X. Our intention is met. We find something that contradicts our hypothesis. It's not nonsense, it's just reality, in this case, was more complicated than our hypothesis. We succeeded in finding out if our hypothesis held. It didn't. We also found Y without X. We know more.
2. You misunderstand...if one is trying to make sense of the world then the world does not make sense, otherwise they would not be trying to make sense of it if it already made sense.
1) You're shifting a relation to a fact about the world. People do not formulate and test hypothesis' if sense is already made.
Yes, you can phrase it as 'the world doesn't make sense'. But really this means 'the world doesn't make sense to me (yet)'
'I don't understand some facet of the world.'
But you've shifted the meaning to 'the world doesn't make sense.' Which implies or actually states that the world doesn't make sense.

It's an equivocation. The verb 'to make sense' means to find out something, perhaps something that we find hard to understand.

You're sliding from that to
The world is such that it doesn't make sense - it has built in contradictions (even if no observer what there).

There can also be a conflation between someone understands something and something is logically unsound.
There is also the meaning of communicating in a way that is intelligible.

It might be better to use 'understand' as the verb because I think these various meanings of 'make sense' are not helping.

We have limited understanding. We create hypotheses about the world. Some seem to hold and also predict stuff well. We move forward.

3. I sense that there is nonsense and this nonsense does not make sense thus what I sense is nonsense and the duality between the two is a paradox that leads to the acceptance of nonsense for what it is or is not.
I don't think 'nonsense' is a necessary part of the learning process.
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