a defense of drag show/drag queens..

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seeds
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by seeds »

phyllo wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:49 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote:
As I recommended to Iambiguous: listen to the woman’s discourse. It shows two principle things: 1) that the present madness (her words) indicates an extremism that alienates a person located on the traditional progressive-left. 2) that the phenomena of cross-dressing, drag, sex change, drug therapies and surgery, the social engineering in pedagogy, is part of a top-down movement, not a simple and harmless sexy show.
I have looked at the transcript....
Forget the transcript, you need to watch the video to get a true understanding of the speaker's (Jennifer Bilek's) emphatic and intelligent (and quite entertaining) take on the issue.

This was an excellent recommendation from my dear, dear Internet friend, Alexis Jacobi,...

(the creator of "Dr." Bonaparte's Ten Week Psychological Recovery Email Program)

...and (joking aside) every participant in this thread should take the time to watch the full video...

https://youtu.be/tLXdoqXbC6k
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phyllo
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by phyllo »

seeds wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:06 pm
phyllo wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:49 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote:
As I recommended to Iambiguous: listen to the woman’s discourse. It shows two principle things: 1) that the present madness (her words) indicates an extremism that alienates a person located on the traditional progressive-left. 2) that the phenomena of cross-dressing, drag, sex change, drug therapies and surgery, the social engineering in pedagogy, is part of a top-down movement, not a simple and harmless sexy show.
I have looked at the transcript....
Forget the transcript, you need to watch the video to get a true understanding of the speaker's (Jennifer Bilek's) emphatic and intelligent (and quite entertaining) take on the issue.

This was an excellent recommendation from my dear, dear Internet friend, Alexis Jacobi,...

(the creator of "Dr." Bonaparte's Ten Week Psychological Recovery Email Program)

...and (joking aside) every participant in this thread should take the time to watch the full video...

https://youtu.be/tLXdoqXbC6k
_______
That would take almost 39 minutes out of my life. I can read fast. :evil:
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:49 pmBut tech just facilitates through meds and surgeries something that originates elsewhere. And I don't mean some sort of corporate or elite agenda. It's something that has always been there. It's a disconnect and alienation from reality.
Firstly, my primary argument is against the introduction of sexualized content and information into the public schools and into the public sphere (public spaces). You are free to have any opinion that is honest for you but I have come to the conclusion that this is a) wrong, b) unethical, c) socially and culturally destructive, and d) that I am therefore bound because of the values that I have defined to 1) oppose it, and 2) give my support to those who are also in a battle against it.

The sexual revolution is, for me, a topic of philosophical inquiry. I do not, at a starting point, merely accept the common view that says *It is good* and therefore should not be examined critically and as I say philosophically. With that put out in the open then I am free to consider many different sources of information and perspectives. I am also free to reject, or critique, those perspectives that seem to me determined by herd mentality and also projects of social programming. Again, I referred to After The Ball as a text; an outline of social activism that was written by a psychologist and a PR man. So then, the use of propaganda to modify social attitude is then a valid topic for examination. Projects of social engineering in the Postwar period, and the involvement of elites and elite interests, is a valid area of examination from a philosophical perspective.

Though you seem to reject the set of views that Bilek has put forth -- you are completely free to do so -- I neither completely accept them but I also to not completely reject them. If the confluence of politics, social control, corporate collusion with government, throughout the pandemic period has not come to the fore of your own perspectives as something *worthy of consideration* and also as *concerning* you are once again fully within your rights to hold to that opinion. But in my opinion, which is not unreasoned and is not unreasonable, all of this stuff must be examined with a sober and yet a critical orientation. Therefore "corporate or elite agenda" is not immediately dismissed and especially when there is no doubt at all that we all live and experience 'reality' through the mediation of those giant corporations. If that is true, then the manipulation of opinion, and indeed the manipulation if idea and perception is beyond doubt something that should be under consideration of those with a philosophical orientation.

If you do accept that there is a "disconnect and alienation from reality" then it seems to me that you have at least some basis for beginning to consider the mechanisms through which a) this comes about, but also b) how the present (let's say) reigning powers either contribute to that or, perhaps, engineer that. At that point, again, social manipulation, idea manipulation, ideological manipulation and social engineering become not paranoid phantasies dependent on how one's dasein is defined but immediate social and political concerns.

My view of what you have written is that your perspective is valid ... but shallow. But you are absolutely entitled to have it.
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phyllo
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by phyllo »

I think that there is a tendency to find coordination and intention where there is none.

We currently live in a society which believes that problems can and ought to be resolved by pills and surgeries.

Unhappy with your life? There's a pill for that. There's a boob job for that.

And corporations sell their solutions, their products.

Big pharma is more than content to sell you a drug which you need to take for the rest of your life.

Are they intentionally moving people in a particular direction? Moving them all to trans? To transhuman?

Some believe so.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:52 pmAre they intentionally moving people in a particular direction? Moving them all to trans? To transhuman?

Some believe so.
It is hard not to believe it when the notion of 'unseen influence' is at the core of both propaganda and PR:
“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”

― Edward Bernays, Propaganda
Edward Bernays is the authority on propaganda and PR since he wrote the seminal texts. May I ask you to critique what he himself wrote? That is, was he right (about what he said that he and about the "unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government") or was he exaggerating?
Flannel Jesus
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:59 pm
phyllo wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:52 pmAre they intentionally moving people in a particular direction? Moving them all to trans? To transhuman?

Some believe so.
It is hard not to believe it when the notion of 'unseen influence' is at the core of both propaganda and PR:
This seems like a big leap. The notion of unseen influence is at the core of propaganda and pr, so any influence that we don't see must be real!
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

As per usual you have read badly (deliberately I assume), then rephrased a bad reading into something flatly absurd. You have a talent for this.
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Flannel Jesus »

"it's hard not to believe X when Y" <= is this format of argument not suggesting that Y is a piece of evidence for X, or a good argument for X?
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by iambiguous »

Alexis Jacobi/Mr. Snippet wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:06 pm
iambiguous wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:01 am How then are the points I raise here...
If John is a drag queen and likes being one or Bill likes going to drag shows, we can explore their lives and note the personal experiences and relationships they had that allows us to understand why that was the case. But the actual facts here about John and Bill don't change just because someone refuses to accept them.

On the other hand, how others react to John being a drag queen or Bill enjoying drag shows can range from great enthusiasm to utter disgust. And, similarly, we can explore their lives and note the parts where their moral and political value judgments here were shaped existentially, subjectively. Given their upbringing as children or the communities they were raised in or the personal experiences they had as adults.


...not applicable you?


How is your [and her] "larger picture" able to be demonstrated as in fact the One True Path to grasping drag queens and drag shows and transgender individuals? And not, instead, one of the dozens and dozens of other ideological dogmas out there?
Alexis Jacobi/Mr. Snippet wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:06 pmI recommend to you that you spend some minutes listening to what she is saying. The transvestite show is only a smaller manifestation of a much larger phenomenon
Right, like those on the left don't have their own "good faith" "larger phenomenon" that they direct us to in regard to those like you.
Alexis Jacobi/Mr. Snippet wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:06 pmQuestion: Is any part of what she talks about sufficient in your view for ‘genuine concern’?
I watched to the part where she comes off [to me] as another Satyr: biologically there are men and women who are programmed by nature to fuck and reproduce the species. Anything other than that is "fake"/"unnatural" and must be opposed. Transgender folks are encouraged by the medical industrial complex because tons and tons of money can be made operating on them. Certain billionaires are behind it all. Billionaire Jews for example.

As though there are not in fact men and women who really do feel more comfortable/fulfilled imagining themselves as the other gender. As though homosexuality and such really was an unnatural perversion. As though everything relating to human sexuality must pertain exclusively to reproduction of the species.

Now, give us your own take on her point in the video. And note the hard evidence she provides to back it up and sustain it.
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Are you not playing games here? I always assume at least some degree of bad-faith when dealing with many who write on this forum.

I included a famous quote of Edward Bernays only to counter Phyllo's assertion when he said that "I think that there is a tendency to find coordination and intention where there is none." That is to say, there may well be 'coordination of intention' and the matter is not put aside merely by opining that there is not.

What was the topic under discussion? It was the assertion that there is a top-driven movement to validate and possibly to encourage hormone therapies and also surgical interventions. Certainly that is the conclusion of Jennifer Biles.

So simply to dismiss her research does not seem like a wise choice.

In order to respond coherently and constructively to what has been submitted to this thread you'd have to take the entirety of the picture presented into account. My opinion? Your will is set against it. For that reason it fits into the generally dead-end conversations that take place on this forum.

They are more elaborately rehearsed games than actual conversations on important themes.
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by iambiguous »

Alexis Jacobi aka Mr. Snippet aka Mr. wiggle wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:54 pm Are you not playing games here? I always assume at least some degree of bad-faith when dealing with many who write on this forum.

I included a famous quote of Edward Bernays only to counter Phyllo's assertion when he said that "I think that there is a tendency to find coordination and intention where there is none." That is to say, there may well be 'coordination of intention' and the matter is not put aside merely by opining that there is not.

What was the topic under discussion? It was the assertion that there is a top-driven movement to validate and possibly to encourage hormone therapies and also surgical interventions. Certainly that is the conclusion of Jennifer Biles.

So simply to dismiss her research does not seem like a wise choice.

In order to respond coherently and constructively to what has been submitted to this thread you'd have to take the entirety of the picture presented into account. My opinion? Your will is set against it. For that reason it fits into the generally dead-end conversations that take place on this forum.

They are more elaborately rehearsed games than actual conversations on important themes.
Pick one:

1] Absolutely shameless.
2] Absolutely embarrassing
3] Absolutely both

:roll:

Now back to this:
I watched to the part where she comes off [to me] as another Satyr: biologically there are men and women who are programmed by nature to fuck and reproduce the species. Anything other than that is "fake"/"unnatural" and must be opposed. Transgender folks are encouraged by the medical industrial complex because tons and tons of money can be made operating on them. Certain billionaires are behind it all. Billionaire Jews for example.

As though there are not in fact men and women who really do feel more comfortable/fulfilled imagining themselves as the other gender. As though homosexuality and such really was an unnatural perversion. As though everything relating to human sexuality must pertain exclusively to reproduction of the species.

Now, give us your own take on her point in the video. And note the hard evidence she provides to back it up and sustain it.
Last edited by iambiguous on Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:54 pm Are you not playing games here? I always assume at least some degree of bad-faith when dealing with many who write on this forum.

I included a famous quote of Edward Bernays only to counter Phyllo's assertion when he said that "I think that there is a tendency to find coordination and intention where there is none." That is to say, there may well be 'coordination of intention' and the matter is not put aside merely by opining that there is not.

What was the topic under discussion? It was the assertion that there is a top-driven movement to validate and possibly to encourage hormone therapies and also surgical interventions. Certainly that is the conclusion of Jennifer Biles.

So simply to dismiss her research does not seem like a wise choice.

In order to respond coherently and constructively to what has been submitted to this thread you'd have to take the entirety of the picture presented into account. My opinion? Your will is set against it. For that reason it fits into the generally dead-end conversations that take place on this forum.

They are more elaborately rehearsed games than actual conversations on important themes.
Fair enough, I was being a bit silly. You caught me.
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:40 pm I watched to the part where she comes off [to me] as another Satyr: biologically there are men and women who are programmed by nature to fuck and reproduce the species. Anything other than that is "fake"/"unnatural" and must be opposed. Transgender folks are encouraged by the medical industrial complex because tons and tons of money can be made operating on them. Certain billionaires are behind it all. Billionaire Jews for example.

As though there are not in fact men and women who really do feel more comfortable/fulfilled imagining themselves as the other gender. As though homosexuality and such really was an unnatural perversion. As though everything relating to human sexuality must pertain exclusively to reproduction of the species.

Now, give us your own take on her point in the video. And note the hard evidence she provides to back it up and sustain it.
What I can say -- I hope this helps you - is that she is, or was, a longtime advocate for LGB rights. It is important that you understand this.

The rest of what you have written is outrageous misconstruing -- I assume deliberate but it may also be possible that you have difficulties reading and reasoning about what you have read.

So instead of paraphrasing what she has said, I would focus on your problems in reading (listening) and understanding.

Certainly as a feminist, and pro-woman, she is uncomfortable with men who artificially adopt women's 'parts' and then assume they can be referred to, and should be referred to, as legitimate women. That is definitely a position she takes.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:01 pm 1] Absolutely shameless.
2] Absolutely embarrassing
3] Absolutely both
4] Absolutely incredible, on-the-mark, and dominating the pseudo-conversation 100%
I always prefer more options than less!
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: a defense of drag show/drag queens..

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Now, give us your own take on her point in the video. And note the hard evidence she provides to back it up and sustain it.
Do you mean subject it to the wild interpretation-method that you-plural use?

I am not presenting Euclidian proofs, I am bringing up issues that are pertinent today and worthy of thought and discussion.
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